Reclaiming Commerce

by Michael Boldin

For decades, using a tortured definition of “interstate commerce,” Congress has claimed the authority to regulate, control, ban, or mandate virtually everything – from wheat grown on one’s own land for personal consumption, to weed grown in an individual’s own home for the same purpose, to guns manufactured, sold and kept in state boundaries, and everything in between. And, unfortunately, the Supreme Court has largely condoned and even encouraged such reprehensible legislative behavior.

How can they justify this? According to leading Constitutional scholar, Rob Natelson, they make two basic arguments.

The first argument was spun during the New Deal by a University of Chicago law professor. (Too many law professors spend entirely too much time fabricating constitutional theories to promote big government.)

This professor argued that during the Founding Era the word “commerce” meant more than trade. Instead, he contended, “commerce” included all gainful economic activities. Hence Congress has a license to regulate the entire economy.

An even broader version of this theory was published more recently by a Yale law professor. He maintains that “commerce” means any human interaction – so the federal government can regulate almost anything, so long as it doesn’t trample one of the specific guarantees in the Constitution, such as Free Speech.

Both, however, are wrong – flipping the original meaning of the commerce clause on its head.

TURN THIS THING AROUND

In 2011, state legislative contacts close to the Tenth Amendment Center tell us to expect that a number of states will attempt to resist this federal overreach. The first? Virginia. Introduced – prefiled, that is – for the 2011 legislative session, is Delegate Mark Cole’s House Bill 1438 (HB1438), which:

Provides that all goods produced or manufactured within the Commonwealth, when such goods are held, retained, or maintained in the Commonwealth, shall not be subject to federal law, federal regulation, or the constitutional power of the United States Congress to regulate interstate commerce.

At first glance, a bill like this might not seem to be out of the ordinary, until one spends a little time thinking about how much of our current unconstitutional federal leviathan the feds have jammed down our throats while claiming “interstate commerce!” every single time.

From Obamacare to Cap and Trade to the Controlled Substances Act – and everything in between – there are literally countless examples of how the federal government claims the right to not only regulate, but control, prohibit, and mandate under its delegated power to regulate commerce – “among the several states.”

The Original Constitution

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THE COMMERCE CLAUSE

If, like any legal document, the words of the Constitution (and its amendments) mean today just what they meant when it was signed, then we must understand the original meaning of words in Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the Constitution – the “Interstate Commerce Clause.” It delegates to Congress the power to:

“regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.”

According to Constitutional scholar Randy Barnett, the original meaning of “commerce” was limited to the “trade and exchange” of goods and transportation for this purpose. The original meaning of “to regulate” generally meant “to make regular” -that is, to specify how an activity may be transacted-when applied to domestic commerce, but when applied to foreign trade also included the power to make “prohibitory regulations.” “Among the several States” meant between persons of one state and another.

According to Constitutional scholar Rob Natelson, the commerce clause gave Congress power to regulate interstate commerce — not any “matters that have significant spillover effects across state lines.” The Constitutional Convention rejected the wording of the Virginia Plan, which arguably would have let the Federal government regulate any activity with interstate spillover. In other words, the Founders made the deliberate decision to leave many activities with spillover effects to the states.

Not included in this power to regulate commerce “across state lines” is the authority to regulate activites that are non-economic or solely INTRAstate, which the language of Virginia’s Instrastate Commerce Act addresses.

NULLIFICATION

Laws of the federal government are Supreme in all matters pursuant to the delegated powers of U.S. Constitution. When D.C. enacts laws outside those powers, state laws trump. And, as Thomas Jefferson would say, when the federal government assumes powers not delegated to it, those acts are “unathoritative, void, and of no force” from the outset.

The principle behind such legislation is nullification, which has a long history in the American tradition. When a state ‘nullifies’ a federal law, it is proclaiming that the law in question is void and inoperative, or ‘non-effective,’ within the boundaries of that state; or, in other words, not a law as far as the state is concerned. Implied in such legislation is that the state apparatus will enforce the act against all violations – in order to protect the liberty of the state’s citizens.

In the Virginia Resolution of 1798, James Madison wrote of the principle of interposition:

That this Assembly doth explicitly and peremptorily declare, that it views the powers of the federal government, as resulting from the compact, to which the states are parties; as limited by the plain sense and intention of the instrument constituting the compact; as no further valid that they are authorized by the grants enumerated in that compact; and that in case of a deliberate, palpable, and dangerous exercise of other powers, not granted by the said compact, the states who are parties thereto, have the right, and are in duty bound, to interpose for arresting the progress of the evil, and for maintaining within their respective limits, the authorities, rights and liberties appertaining to them.

When states resist, interpose, and nullify unconstitutional federal “laws” – this is not rebellion, it’s duty.

RECLAIMING INTRASTATE COMMERCE

A long train of improper judicial precedents and federal usurpations of power under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 are not supreme simply due to the fact they are outside the scope of power delegated to the federal government.

By introducing HB1438, Delegate Cole attempts to place Virginia in a position of proper authority while pressing the issue of state supremacy back into the public sphere.

In 1942 no state intervened or challenged the federal claim to regulate non-commercial intrastate activity in Wickard v Filburn. This landmark court decision claimed to give the federal government the power, under the guise of “interstate commerce,” to control the growing of a plant in one’s own backyard – and consuming it at home.

This ruling marked a reversal of precedent set over the course of more than 150 years where the federal courts had ruled against such loose interpretation. The federal government now claims authority – under the commerce clause – to control or ban what you grow and consume at home, to tell you how big your toilet can be, and that you can be fined for not purchasing a health insurance plan. Such powers are not what the founders and ratifiers gave Congress in the Constitution.

With the passage of a bill like HB1438, Virginia would become the first state to reject in one fell swoop the ludicrous and intellectually dishonest constitutional rationale that underpins so much federal activity, and reclaim the rightful authority to regulate commerce within its own borders.

*******

CLICK HERE to view the Tenth Amendment Center’s Model Legislation – The Intrastate Commerce Act

CLICK HERE – to view the Tenth Amendment Center’s Intrastate Commerce Act Tracking Page

About Michael Boldin

Michael Boldin [send him email] is the founder of the Tenth Amendment Center. He was raised in Milwaukee, WI, and currently resides in Los Angeles, CA. Follow him on twitter - @michaelboldin, on LinkedIn, and on Facebook.

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42 comments
Mario E. Porrata
Mario E. Porrata

Just a short note on the P&N clause. It would be a tremendous contradiction to interpret this clause as a general grant of power to the Congress. The constitution was created precisely to limit the powers of a central government. Otherwise, the constitution would have never been. A powerful central government was simply a NO, NO, NO.
And to reinforce this basic foundation, the Bill of Rights was being formed while the debate over the Constitution was taking place and the Tenth Amendment was explicitely written into the Bill, following the wide reaching Ninth Amendment.

dubya
dubya

*no such thing

dubya
dubya

What ever the definition of "regulate", it must be the same when applied to commerce with foreign nations, among the states, and with the tribes. Thus, if the commerce clause gives Congress the power to limit the amount of wheat a farmer in Ohio can grow, then it gives Congress the power to limit the amount of wheat that can be grown by a farmer in Saskatchewan. But then, it does not such thing.

Frank DeMartini
Frank DeMartini

The arrgument to use Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution to regulate Interstate Commerce as a means to allow the Federal Government to control all commerce has run its course. The state of California and now a few other states, including most recently Arizona, are taking this argument head on with their marijuana laws. The next item will be Obamacare. This will be the battle that us Tenth Amendment people must win. If so, then nullification will become the power that the Founding Fathers always believed it will be. Our website: www.hollywoodrepublican.net has taken this position repeatedly.

Tom
Tom

Wow, this is the most intelligent and non-flaming comments section I have ever come across. I applaud you all.

Brian
Brian

Ok I have to give credit for all the quotes that I took from your posts that I used to condense to what I believe should be the main focus of the argument against the usurpers. Every time they appear to be applying the Kaopectate they should have a bottle of Ex-lax busted over their heads... figuratively speaking of course. They should be given no room to argue that "to regulate" was used as a "restriction" such as I believe was used in argument that the Feds could make restrictions regarding slave ownership.. or something to that effect.... I know that it was after the original application of "to regulate commerce" was it used in a restrictive sense. This is where the corruption of the Clause began. Pleas correct me or clarify where this corruption entered the scene.

Brian
Brian

"Congress was simply granted the power to make regular... commerce between the several States." "the word regulate itself has a specific meaning.["to make regular"] It does not...[at all]...mean tax, or prohibit or ban or mandate"[as] "the intent of the commerce clause was to prevent the states from imposing tariffs["constipation"] and quotas on each other"... "The states were, in essence, putting up roadblocks[with Kaopectate] to[constipate the] trade by the people of various states, and the commerce["Ex-lax"]clause was included, for a major part, to prevent the individual states from doing that and ensuring that people of the several states could trade with each other".

jbdollar
jbdollar

This action is the only real way to stop Federal tyranny. No matter how may "Tea Party" candidates we send to DC, it is still the monster that can only be slain by the sword of States Rights.

JohnLock
JohnLock

Michael and Rob,

thank you for all the work you do; if people like you can educate us in the general public maybe just maybe we can claw the power from a usurping Federal Government and return it to the States and then to the People.

Judges are not granted any powers to create, alter, enforce, or change any laws or regulations - these powers have been usurped using the theory of case law (one built upon another or lie upon lie.). Case law can not trump the Constitution without ending the concept of the Rule - by - Law and using the Rule - by - Man. The rule by man system has failed ever time throughout history and is failing in America as I write.

Rob, thank you for your new book, I have just started studying it (not just reading) in the first 50 pages I have read things that I never read anywhere else in my 67 years on this earth. I will email you my new understanding after much time and effort.

Thank you both for you are the future of our Republic.

Deefburger
Deefburger

I believe the flaw in definitions is not those of commerce but rather the meaning of the word "regulate". The word does not mean "control" in the language of the Founding Fathers. Instead, it meant "ordered".

Consider the use in the phrase "regular army". What they meant by that was an ordered and consistent force of armed men, as opposed to a disorderly and un-"regulated" mob of armed men. An other example would be clocks. One manufacturer of fine time pieces even called themselves "Regulator". Regulation of trade was accomplished by the use of Standard units of measurement, Standard units of Money (Silver Dollar Units), and Standard accounting practices.

The establishment of Units standard to the whole nation is all the "regulation" the tenth amendment allows the Federal government. This is why in the Mint Act of 1792, the standard pound of Silver was given to the NIST to safeguard and maintain. One Pound Silver was the regulated standard unit of value and weight and substance to enable interstate commerce to function.

Without standard units, the States would or might have differing units of the same name, making legal problems for the courts in cases between trading partners across state lines. It for this reason, and this reason alone that the Tenth Amendment was written. It is regulation by Standard, not regulation by force and decree.

C. Francis Habeck
C. Francis Habeck

The government loves these discussions because they have absolutely nothing to do with reality.

The only provision in the Constitution that is involved is Art. I, Sec. 8, Cl. 17 of the U.S. Constitution, which read as follows:

"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) ...... the Seat of the Government of the United States....."

I have written a paper on why this is so but since I do not have a website please email me and I will send it to you. I am also writing on how the situation described in the paper affects every aspect of our lives. If anyone wishes to post it in a more accessable site please feel free to do so. The only caveat is to not change it except by adding an addendum as it is copyrighted.

Thank you,

Patriot1789@hotmail.com

Thomas
Thomas

There is a second half to my post... not sure why, but it is being held by the system for the admins to approve....

Thomas
Thomas

(cont)

I cannot fathom how anyone can assume that a document that was meant to delegate SPECIFIC LIMITED powers to a central government (which was essentially supposed to act as mediator between the states and Indians, provide a central avenue for dealing with international affairs, and providing the for the common defense) can be interpreted by any reasonable, literate person as being all powerful. The government we have today can only be attributed to each successive generation not being taught about the Constitution, thereby allowing the government to grow beyond what was intended. I think the TAC, and everyone who posts here, have helped bring many people back to the Constitution.

For this, I thank you all.

Thomas
Thomas

As I read through the replies to this article, I am learning more and more about how finely debated even the smallest part of the Constitution really has become (or in the case of many parts, has been debated for a long, long time). I admit, I am just your average Joe, reading the Constitution. I consider myself a reasonable person, do not posess a graduate degree and no formal education in political-speak or writing. I have always believed that the Constitution was designed to be understood by any reasonable, literate person who has a moderate ability to critically read and understand. I have been amazed at the nuances of the Constitution to be as plain as possible, and yet as accomodating as possible, at least in the areas of liberty and freedom. This document must be taken as a whole, and not picked apart for one side or the other's agenda.

Bob Greenslade
Bob Greenslade

In his 1913 book, The Framing of the Constitution, Max Farrand explained, in part, why this provision was incorporated into the Constitution:

"Pending a grant of power to congress over matters of commerce, the states acted individually. A uniform policy was necessary, and while a pretense was made of acting in unison to achieve a much desired end, it is evident that selfish motives frequently dictated what was done. Any state which enjoyed superior conditions to a neighboring state was only too apt to take advantage of that fact. Some of the states, as James Madison described it, ‘having no convenient ports for foreign commerce, were subject to be taxed by their neighbors, through whose ports their commerce was carried on.’... The Americans were an agricultural and trading people. Interference with the arteries of commerce was cutting off the very life-blood of the nation and something had to be done."

During the debates in the Federal [Constitutional] Convention Oliver Ellsworth stated:

"The power of regulating trade between the States will protect them against each other."

James Madison reiterated this point in the Convention as follows:

"[P]erhaps the best guard against an abuse of the power of the States on this subject, was the right in the General Government to regulate trade between State and State."

In The Federalist, essay No. 45, Madison asserted that the Commerce Clause was a harmless power that no one really opposed:

"If the new Constitution be examined with accuracy and candor, it will be found that the change which it proposes consists much less in the addition of NEW POWERS to the Union, than in the invigoration of its ORIGINAL powers. The regulations of commerce, it is true, is a new power; but that seems to be an addition which few oppose, and from which no apprehensions are entertained."

Thomas Jefferson, in 1791, stated that Congress was not granted the power to regulate commerce within the several States:

"[T]he power given to Congress by the Constitution does not extend to the internal regulation of the commerce of a state, [that is to say, of the commerce between citizen and citizen,] which remains exclusively with its own legislature; but to its external commerce only, that is to say, its commerce with another state, or with foreign nations, or with Indian tribes."

It appears that the purpose of the words “regulate commerce…among the several States” was to insure the free passage of goods between the individual States. Congress was simply granted the power to make regular or normalize commerce between the several States.

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

Interesting, thanks for sharing, Bob! I have a feeling you might like tomorrow\'s featured post...

Bob Greenslade
Bob Greenslade

Michael I am looking forward to it. Here are a few more interesting quotes.

In his 1908 book, Federal Usurpation, Franklin Pierce wrote:

"Congress, before the treaty of peace with Great Britain and again after the making of that treaty, had sought the power from the states to impose duties upon foreign imports and to control interstate commerce."

"Pennsylvania imposed duties upon exports from New Jersey and Maryland. Virginia, by reason of her duties on both foreign and domestic imports, secured a considerable part of the revenues necessary for the payment of the cost of her government. The port of Charleston afforded an opportunity to the people of South Carolina to exact tribute from Georgia and North Carolina. As a result of all these duties upon imports from foreign countries, and imports from adjoining states, animosities had arisen between the states, and the need that the national government should have power to stop these obstructions to commerce was the very cause of the meeting at Annapolis and of the Constitutional Convention.

In regard to foreign commerce, the general government stands in the place of every state and represents it for every national purpose, yet when the states surrendered the right to control interstate commerce, having in view the abuses which had grown up, it was undoubtedly their intent to confer only the power to make commerce free between the states.

It was the desire for freedom of commerce among the states which inspired this provision as to interstate commerce in the Constitution, and all the early cases so indicate."

"In fact it will be found that, within the conception of the fathers, the control which they gave over interstate commerce was intended to cover only coastwise shipping from the port of one state to the port of another state."

"But there is an abundance of evidence found in the acts of the Constitutional convention, and in the construction of the Constitution by the early Presidents, to show that it was not the intent of the framers of the Constitution, under the power to regulate interstate commerce, to clothe Congress with the power to prohibit commerce. Edmund Randolph, who presented to the Constitutional Convention the Virginia plan, while Attorney-General under the administration of Washington, gave his opinion to Washington, February 12, 1791, on the extent of the power in Congress to regulate commerce, saying that its extent was “'little more than to establish the forms of commercial intercourse between the states, and to keep the prohibitions which the Constitution imposed upon that intercourse undiminished in their operation; that is, to prevent taxes on imports or exports, preference to one port over another by any regulation of commerce or revenue, and duties upon the entering or clearing of the vessels of one state in the ports of another.'”

He went on to state:

"But the times have changed and the customs have changed. To-day government goes roaming at will upon a boundless sea without chart or compass, seeking power wherever it can find it, with little reference to the limitations of the Constitution.

In short, the national government, with few delegated powers, is going back to the old world views of the functions of government, and, through the interstate commerce act, is establishing a Federal police power which follows the footsteps of every citizen by licenses and restraining laws into every avenue of life, and practically supplants the police powers reserved to the states."

It looks like the usurpation of power through the commerce clause was set in motion over 100 years ago.

Stormytime
Stormytime

Amendment XXVIII, proposed draft:

If in the sole opinion of any State, the Congress, the Executive, or the Judiciary exceed, have exceeded or intend to exceed a delegated Power within the boundaries of the State, OR act, have acted or intend to act without delegated Authority within the boundaries of the State, each Branch of the federal government SHALL immediately cease and desist in the Intrusion, in Accordance with the requirements of the offended State.

Steve Longshot
Steve Longshot

I have always been under the impression that the intent of the commerce clause was to prevent the states from imposing tariffs and quotas on each other. Why would the founders have wished for the federal government to involve itself with two people trading across state borders. I thought the whole idea was to create a free trade zone.

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

Steve- you are definitely in the right direction. A primary goal was to prevent trade restrictions as you have mentioned. At the time of the founding there were serious trade disputes and conflicts going on. One state would put up a tariff or a restriction on another, and others would retaliate, and the like.

The barriers and tariffs were not on state governments trading with each other, but rather, one state government would put a tariff on the trade of people in one state, coming into another state.

The states were, in essence, putting up roadblocks to trade by the people of various states, and the commerce clause was included, for a major part, to prevent the individual states from doing that and ensuring that people of the several states could trade with each other.

Under the reading that you presented above, that the commerce clause only applies to the state apparatus - or possibly the state governments itself - that would only allow the federal government to regulate trade amongst those entities - and it would leave the states with the power to put up the trade barriers that the founders told us the commerce clause was written to prevent.

Unfortunately, that power has been distorted, but that's another issue...

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

and if we keep in mind the proper definition of regulate (which is a different word than prohibit, ban, and mandate, for example) the power to "regulate" trade is actually not a bad thing - it's there to prevent trade restrictions and opens up the country to free trade.

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

3. It is essential to understand why the founders included certain powers, and this clause was addressing situations where people were trading across state lines - and the founders wanted to make sure that trade was not impeded. Again, to ignore this reality is to ignore the essence of the clause itself.

4. since we have had this discussion repeatedly on this site - I would like to not have this discussion another dozen times. To continue seems to be a bit troll-ish, in my opinion. thank you.

TextualistDude
TextualistDude

MB

I was not familiar with the term 'troll-ish' so I looked it up. The most apt definition I could find was:

"One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption."

Perhaps there is a completely different definition of which I am unaware. If I've got it right, however, it seems as if you are accusing me of intentionally causing disruption here. (It seems unlikely your intent was to accuse YOURSELF of that malfeasance.)

Again, assuming I've got the correct definition of the word, perhaps you didn't read the final sentence in my prior post. Here it is again:

"FWIW, I've quit raising this issue on my own because it tends to get us off the point that most of us agree upon: The federal government is an out-of-control monster that must be reigned in! "

Those are hardly the words of someone who is trying to disrupt this web site.

Also, it's odd to me that you don't seem to realize that not everyone is aware that you and I have previously debated this issue at length. Some people may be new to this site or may have missed the past debates. The comments are (hopefully) not just read by the two of us.

It's possible some readers, such as Steve Longshot perhaps, will find this issue to be a NEW and engaging thought even though you clearly don't find it so.

I didn't raise this issue. In fact, I intentionally avoided it in my first comment above about the N&P clause. I only broached it when SL brought it up on his own and made the interesting observation about the wording of the clause.

If you don't want to debate it again with me, then don't reply to my comments on this issue. Isn't that pretty simple? Isn't that better than telling someone to shut up, no matter how nicely you try to put it?

I think you're doing great work (THANK YOUI!!) and I strongly support the TAC but, it's possible to become the thing you're trying to stop...

Your views are just fine and well-supported and logical and well-intentioned and you should feel secure enough in them that they can withstand an occasional challenge from a dolt like me.

Nothing I say should be able to cause you to lose your cool.

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

keyword - ish!

So on to the next subject...

EDIT: If it were anything more than that, I would not be engaging you personally in these discussions!

Steve Longshot
Steve Longshot

Is it possible that commerce among the states was meant to regulate commerce among the actual states, and relates to such things as tariffs and import quotas? The framers seemed very careful in choosing when to say "the people" and when to say "the states". They didn't say "commerce among the people of different states" or anything that would lead one to believe that they were giving congress the power to meddle in the behavior of individual people.

Just my wishful thinking for the day...

Philosopherking
Philosopherking

Cudos to you. I never thought of that before. Its the power to regulate commerce among the states and not the people.

TextualistDude
TextualistDude

SL

Thanks for that extremely careful reading of the actual words of the document!! A+ for reading!!!

I've made this argument for years. The word "interstate" doesn't even appear in the Constitution!

The words say exactly what you said and they do NOT say that trade among PEOPLE living in different States is the issue. If you knew nothing about the so-called "interstate commerce clause" or the writings outside the Constitution or various US Supreme Court opinions, how would you read this phrase? Would you dream up the word "interstate" and insert it? Would you apply this phrase to PEOPLE conducting commerce regardless of where they live?

The word "people" does not even appear in this phrase yet it appears in other parts of the document. Obviously, the drafters knew how to use the word "people" when they wanted to use it and the word "States" when they wanted to use it.

Your reading gives meaning to all the words in the document and keeps the federal government as small as possible which is consistent with the overall intent of the Constitution. The reading that others prefer (because of contemporaneous writings outside the Constitution) is the one we're stuck with today.

I'd love it if people would FIRST read the document and see what it says BEFORE they go off to read other things and then change the meaning of the words that were actually used.

However, even with the more expansive reading of the so-called 'interstate' commerce clause, the opinion in Wickard v. Filburn would be a joke if it weren't so serious...

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

you are defining the clause as if it reads...between the several states....it does not.

because the trade that can be regulated is among the several states...it means that. it cant be trade among a single state. it could be trade from one state govt to another, to one person and another. a govt and a person, a group and a person...anything. there is no reason to include the word person in this clause. in fact, doing so would prevent the regulation of trade between state governments....which pretty much didnt exist at the time this power was delegated.

Julie Mercer
Julie Mercer

Okay. So I'm entering this debate a day late but I just can't resist joining in because I am new to this discussion and sometimes I am a slow learner. And I have no desire to take sides as I have immense respect for both TD and MB. But please, TD, would you elaborate on exactly what difference it makes whether "among" refers to 3 or more states or as Michael insists, refers to 2 or more states. I am not getting why this should be a point of contention between you and Michael.

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

1. You read it how you read it. I read it how the founders told me to read it. So that is your personal interpretation of how the clause constructed. But, not a single founder has ever said anything to substantiate your claim. To ignore that reality is to create a situation where each person defines how THEY see fit, and that is what we have today - people in power who tell us how to view the constitution instead of asking the texts of the founders themselves. And to claim that \"this is just what is means, read the text itself\" doesn\'t cut it, because obviously, a phrase can be read in different ways. many. to leave that to the person in charge is a dangerous situation - and wrong.

2. Your view also ignores the common use and definition of the word among from the time of the founding. The word among does not mean - minimum of three as you have claimed. that\'s just made up. This word was included to enure that no commerce would be excluded from the delegated power as long as it crossed state lines. It didn\'t exclude state actors, it didn\'t excluse individual or corporate actors. It didn\'t exclude anyone or anything.

TextualistDude
TextualistDude

MB

I begin by reading the clause for meaning EXACTLY as it was written. It says Congress has the power to:

"regulate commerce *** among the several States"

The rules of English grammar require the use of the word "among" when referring to more than 2 actors. Thus, the phrase literally means Congress can regulate commerce involving 3 or more States.

Whether this "pretty much didnt exist at the time" is not decisive. Commerce among the various States DID occur, so the phrase is not utterly meaningless when read literally. It's not as if the phrase, when read literally, refers to trade with extraterrestrials, which did not exist at all (and still doesn't) and therefore doesn't make any sense.

If you find the literal reading offensive, you can start a movement to amend the Constitution. Inasmuch as the so-called 'interstate' commerce clause has caused so much harm to the founders' intent, I won't likely be supporting such a movement.

As for adding the word "people", the drafters knew how to write meaningful phrases that included the words "people" and "States." The 10th amendment (the namesake of this web site) is an example!

In the end, of course, I'd be thrilled if we could just get it back to YOUR version, which is BY FAR the more popular. FWIW, I've quit raising this issue on my own because it tends to get us off the point that most of us agree upon: The federal government is an out-of-control monster that must be reigned in!

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

not terrible wishful thinking at all. There is nothing in the record, however, that indicates such a thing. The founders referred to actions among the several states to mean crossing state boundaries. It did not specifically mean trade by people, or trade by states, or trade by any one entity or another. It meant any trade coming from one state and going to another could be regulated.

And keep in mind, the word regulate itself has a specific meaning. It does not necessarily mean tax, or prohibit or ban or mandate - those words have other meanings.

Philosopherking
Philosopherking

Doesn't the term 'among states' mean people in different states therefore it is a power to regulate trade between the people of different states as in when I bring pot across the border to sell in California?

Alan
Alan

The power to regulate local activities such as homegrown wheat that is not sold in interstate commerce comes from the Necessary and Proper Clause and the Commerce Clause together. The Supreme Court has not modified the definition of "commerce" very much. Any case that deals with the substantial effect that some activity has on interstate commerce is a N an P clause/commerce clause case, not just a commerce clause case. The issue really is the meaning of "necessary" not "commerce."

TextualistDude
TextualistDude

Alan

It's sad to see this kind of argument that so badly misreads the plain language in the Constitution.

The N&P clause is the last clause in the list of enumerated Congressional powers because, as it plainly states, Congress has the power to pass laws that are both necessary and proper "for carrying into execution the FOREGOING powers."

Do you see the words "foregoing powers?" Those words mean "the powers listed above."

It's really simple. If Congress passes a law that is in the list of powers detailed in Article I, Sec. 8, they can also pass laws that are both necessary and proper to execute the law. Congress does not have the power to legislate in areas that are NOT enumerated. Since the wheat was never in commerce and never crossed state lines, Congress had no power over it. You never even get to a N&P analysis.

In other words, you have to FIRST find that Congress has the enumerated power to do something before you even get to the N&P analysis.

If the N&P clause were intended to stand on its own as a general grant of power to Congress, then there would be NO NEED for the enumeration of powers. The drafters might just as well have said that Congress can pass any law it deems necessary and proper for the good of the country. With that, the drafters of the Constitution could call it a day. Why bother enumerating any other powers?

A basic rule of statutory construction is that you do not interpret one part of a statute in such a way that you render other parts of the statute mere surplussage if an alternative interpretation will give meaning to ALL parts of the statute.

Do you see why? It's just logic. People do not normally WASTE their time. Why in the world would you interpret a document that was carefully written by intelligent people in such a way as to throw away most of what they painstakingly wrote?

People who make the argument that the N&P clause is a separate grant of power to Congress are either not thinking clearly or they are intentionally misreading the Constitution to reach a result they deem desirable.

How can anyone, after reading the Constitution, come away with the idea that the main purpose of that document was to create the biggest, most powerful central government one can imagine??? It boggles my mind that we even have to point out these facts.

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

another important thing to note - the founders told us that the N&P clause was just a rule of construction, like the 10th, and actually added no new powers - at all.

Philosopherking
Philosopherking

Is it possible that they were afraid that if you didn't give a power to enact laws that someone might interpret the constitution in such a way that only states have the right to enact legislation that the federal government has a right to do?

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

I definitely get the logic of this. but the founders are the ones who told us that this clause added nothing new. why? Because any legal document included in it the ability to act to carry out any delegated powers. this was the norm for principle-agent relationships in the 18th century.

Also the norm was the idea that all powers not delegated were retained. but, to ensure these ideas for posterity's sake, they felt it necessary to include both as what is called a rule of construction...

Philosopherking
Philosopherking

I kind of think the NandP clause is there to give them the power to enact laws. The founders understood democracy as it really is and that we were selecting what tyrant to rule over us. They gave those tyrants certain powers and, in theory, they can use those powers as stated but the NandP give them power to enact laws which makes it possible to use those powers by the creation of legislation.

It says 'they have powers' not 'they can enact legislation'. The NandP give them the power to create laws.

MichaelBoldin
MichaelBoldin

nonsense.

Here's how Natelson put it in the article linked just above -

The second argument for an almost unlimited Commerce Power currently prevails on the U.S. Supreme Court. (Don’t let anyone tell you the present court is “conservative” on such matters.) This argument acknowledges that when the Founders wrote “Commerce,” they meant only trade and a few allied activities, such as navigation.

But it goes on to say that modern economic life, unlike life during the Founding Era, is highly interdependent, so it is now “necessary and proper” for Congress to regulate everything that substantially affects commerce.

But this argument also ignores history. Economic interdependence is nothing new: the promoters of the Constitution themselves emphasized it. But they also assured the public that, interdependent or not, most activities could be regulated only by the states.

They added that the Necessary and Proper Clause added nothing to federal authority, but merely clarified that the legal “doctrine of incidental powers” applied to the Constitution. And no power could be “incidental” if its scope swamped the principal power. In other words, Congress couldn’t take over a big field like manufacturing or agriculture on the pretense of regulating commerce.

Alan
Alan

How is what I say nonsense? I'm not even saying the Supreme Court is right, I'm saying the all those cases like Wickard and Raich are N and P clause cases dealing with the commerce clause. That's correct. Randy Barnett says exactly that in his article "Commandeering the People." How exactly am I wrong?

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  1. [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Zoraida , Ron Paul. Ron Paul said: Reclaiming Commerce http://bit.ly/daOgEO #tlot #tcot #RonPaul [...]

  2. [...] article by Michael Boldin on TenthAmendmentCenter.com. For decades, using a tortured definition of “interstate commerce,” Congress has claimed the [...]