Privileges and Immunities: An Overview of the 14th

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Imagine your favorite college basketball team playing for an elusive National Championship. But sadly, your beloved Wildcats trail by two points with only a second remaining on the clock, and the Blue Devils have possession of the ball. Defeat seems inevitable.

Until the referee intervenes.

Suddenly, the man in stripes adds a full three minutes to the game clock. The official cites a painfully convoluted rule interpretation, claiming the authority to adjust the clock under specific, yet amazingly vague situations. Your Wildcats take full advantage of the extra time and pull out an 87-85 victory.

Now, do you celebrate the victory? Or do you mourn the irreparable damage to the integrity of the game? Do you trumpet the win? Or in the back of your mind, do you realize it wasn’t a legitimate victory?

And when that same ref hoses your team next year, on what basis will you protest?

You simply can’t destroy the integrity of the game, and then complain when nobody respects the integrity of the game.

A recent appellate court ruling overturning an Illinois ban on conceal carry creates a similar dilemma for liberty lovers, though many probably don’t even realize it.

In a 2-1 decision, the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the state prohibition on carrying firearms outside the home unconstitutional, based on the Second Amendment.

“We are disinclined to engage in another round of historical analysis to determine whether eighteenth-century America understood the Second Amendment to include a right to bear guns outside the home. The Supreme Court has decided that the amendment confers a right to bear arms for self-defense, which is as important outside the home as inside,” the judges ruled.

Conservatives and libertarians cheered the ruling, counting it as a great victory for the Second Amendment. But lost in the din of applause, an important question: does the federal government possess the power to regulate state gun laws through the Second Amendment?

Despite a series of court cases running back to the 1920s, under the original Constitution and a proper understanding of the Fourteenth Amendment, it does not. And while the ruling may seem like a great victory in the war against tyranny, in reality, it undermines the integrity of the U.S. system, and erodes the most basic principles of liberty and the rule of law.

Allowing the federal government to regulate state laws through the Bill of Rights destroys the very constitutional structure that liberty activists and conservatives claim to revere. It obliterates state sovereignty, and turns the system the framers envisioned and created on its head. It centralizes power and opens the door for an all-powerful national government, relegating the states and the people to mere spectators, subject to the whims of the D.C. powerbrokers. Sure – it’s nice that you won this one little victory. But what the master giveth – the master may taketh away. The victory rests on and solidifies a precedent that has and will continue to wreck havoc on individual liberty.

Americans need to wrap their minds around a most basic truth: THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT GIVE US RIGHTS.

We already possess rights. The Constitution created a federal government. Through the Constitution, the people of the states delegated that government limited enumerated powers. In order to ensure that the federal government they created did not threaten their rights, the people of the states insisted on a Bill of Rights. The first ten amendments do not confer rights. They simply further define the limited nature of the federal government. The preamble to the Bill of Rights makes this clear.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

Notice that the preamble references only the government instituted by the Constitution – the federal government. It makes no mention of state governments. In fact, the state ratifying conventions had no intention of restricting their own powers. They already had state constitutions to do that job.

This understanding remained unchallenged until after the War Between the States. In fact, Chief Justice John Marshall, generally a friend of nationalized power, affirmed that the Bill of Rights does not operate on state governments in Barron v. Baltimore (1833). The case revolved around the application of the Fifth Amendment in a state court case.

The constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves, for their own government, and not for the government of the individual states. Each state established a constitution for itself, and in that constitution, provided such limitations and restrictions on the powers of its particular government, as its judgment dictated. The people of the United States framed such a government for the United States as they supposed best adapted to their situation and best calculated to promote their interests. The powers they conferred on this government were to be exercised by itself; and the limitations on power, if expressed in general terms, are naturally, and, we think, necessarily, applicable to the government created by the instrument. They are limitations of power granted in the instrument itself; not of distinct governments, framed by different persons and for different purposes.

If these propositions be correct, the fifth amendment must be understood as restraining the power of the general government, not as applicable to the states. In their several constitutions, they have imposed such restrictions on their respective governments, as their own wisdom suggested; such as they deemed most proper for themselves. It is a subject on which they judge exclusively, and with which others interfere no further than they are supposed to have a common interest.

Legal scholars will argue that the 14th Amendment changed all that, “incorporating” the Bill of Rights into the states.

This rests on a misunderstanding of the actual intent of the 14th Amendment.

The amendment was actually drafted to constitutionalize the Civil Rights Act of 1866. Many feared that future congresses could overturn the act, granting the basic rights of citizenship to newly freed slaves, if those rights weren’t enshrined in the Constitution. The 14th Amendment was the result of their efforts. As a result, the provisions of the Civil Rights Act govern the meaning of phrases like “privileges and immunities” and “due process.”

A look at the way proponents explained the amendment makes this clear.

Sen. Lyman Trumbull (Ill.) guided the 14th through the Senate. In a speech in Chicago as the amendment was being debated, he “clearly and unhesitatingly declared Sec. 1 of the Amendment to ‘be a reiteration of the rights as set forth in the Civil Rights Bill.’” Martin Thayer (R-Pa.) declared, “It is but incorporating in the Constitution the principle of the civil rights bill which has lately become a law.” Indiana Senator Henry Smith Lane reaffirmed Trumbull’s views, as did several other congressmen addressing their states.  West Virginia Rep. George Latham said, “The civil rights bill, which is now a law…covers exactly the same ground as the amendment.” Howard Jay Graham, an advocate of an abolitionist reading of the amendment said, “Virtually every speech in the debates on the amendment – Republican and Democrat alike – said or agreed that the amendment was designed to embody or incorporate the Civil Rights Act.”

Proponents of a broader reading to the 14th will point to amendment drafter Rep. John Bingham. He clearly favored incorporating the Bill of Rights into the states.

Except when he didn’t.

Historian Wallace Mendelson, a 14th Amendment scholar, noted, “Bingham is one who used ringing rhetoric as a substitute for rational analysis.”

In fact, Bingham was all over the place. On the one hand, he did indeed argue for an enforcement of the Bill of Rights on the states. On the other hand, he argued vehemently against inclusion of the phrase “civil rights and immunities” in the 1866 Civil Rights Act, saying it could be interpreted to strip rights from the states. He was afraid the bill would empower to federal government to force his state of Ohio to enfranchise blacks.

As much as northern states wanted to protect the basic rights of freed slaves (the first part of the 14th guaranteed them citizenship), they certainly did not want to give up their own sovereignty and power. Bingham himself conceded this point.

“The care of the property, liberty and the life of the citizen, under the solemn sanction of an oath imposed by your Federal Constitution, is in the States, not in the Federal Government. I have sought to effect no change in that respect in the Constitution of the country.”

Bingham’s desires not-withstanding, the purpose of the 14th was to ensure the protection of a specific set of rights to new black citizens – not an incorporation of the Bill of Rights. The northern states weren’t about to give up their sovereignty to the federal government. Had that been the understanding, they would never have ratified it. In fact, many proponents argued that the Civil Rights Act wouldn’t even have any affect in the North.

So what where these privileges and immunities guaranteed by the 14th Amendment? As defined by the Civil Rights Act of 1866, they included the right to enter into contracts, own property, inherit property, travel freely and access to the courts. The right to due process, in a nutshell, guaranteed procedural fairness for all people.

In the Slaughterhouse Case, decided shortly after ratification of the 14th, the Supreme Court affirmed this understanding of the amendment.

Was it the purpose of the fourteenth amendment, by the simple declaration that no State should make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, to transfer the security and protection of all the civil rights which we have mentioned, from the States to the Federal government? And where it is declared that Congress Shall have the power to enforce that article, was it intended to bring within the power of Congress the entire domain of civil rights heretofore belonging exclusively to the States?

All this and more must follow if the proposition of the plaintiffs in error be sound…. [T]he effect is to fetter and degrade the State governments by subjecting them to the control of Congress in the exercise of powers heretofore universally conceded to them of the most ordinary and fundamental character….

We are convinced that no such results were intended by the Congress which proposed these amendments, nor by the legislatures of the States which ratified them.

In fact, it wasn’t until 1925, some 57 years after ratification of the 14th, that the Supreme Court mystically found that the amendment bound the states to the Bill of Rights.

Early Americans wisely feared centralized power. They fought a long, bloody war to free themselves from the tyranny of England. So, they created a general government with limited, specifically prescribed authority, and left the bulk of power at the state level. They recognized a simple reality – the people can better exercise control and protect their rights in a decentralized system, with powers dispersed and checked.

Centralized power possesses great allure. It seduces us with a Siren song and tempts us with an easy fix. We find it simpler to wield federal power and force all of the states to fall in line than fight battles in all 50 states. But how quickly we forget, once we take the power genie out of the bottle, we can never put her back. Once we set the precedent that one group can wield centralized authority to get its way, we open the door for every group to use the same tactics. And we quickly find that most don’t have our best interests at heart.

Simply put: the usurped power you allow for today because it serves your agenda will certainly end up turned against you down the road. And since you’ve destroyed the integrity of the system, you have no recourse other than to scream and cry in frustration. Those of you excited about the gun ruling in Illinois should stop and think about all of the havoc wrecked by the judiciary over the last 100 years because it absolutely refuses to respect Constitutional restraints on federal power.

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Take for example Missouri v. Jenkins. In a 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court basically ruled a federal court can force a local government to raise taxes to collect money to cover the cost of programs designed to correct de facto segregation. The feds can even force this tax increase even if it violates provisions of the state constitution.  And during the 1970s, liberal legal scholars hoped the Warren Court would find a constitutional right to a “minimum income.” Law professor David Bernstein argues that had it not been for Nixon appointing several more “conservative” judges, the Supreme Court very well might have entrenched the welfare state in the morass of modern constitutional law.

So, yes, liberty lovers  got a win this time on guns. But that victory rests on the same reasoning that very nearly gave us a constitutional right to some arbitrary wage and the notion that the feds have the power to control local taxes. Your win comes at a cost. You are  now ultimately subject to the whim of five politically connected lawyers.

So, do we simply sit back and allow state governments to trample our right to keep and bear arms? Of course not. We wield the Second Amendment to keep the federal government at bay, and we work through our state Constitutions to protect our rights within the borders of our state. Every state Constitution in the U.S. has some provision protecting the right to bear arms – except New Jersey. (You folks in the Garden State should get busy remedying that.) Many utilize the exact same language as the Second Amendment. Other feature restrictive stipulations delegating some regulatory power to the state legislature. But that simply means the people of the states must work diligently to ensure their representatives respect and protect their rights, and abide by their state constitutions.

Ultimately, we should not leave the protection of our rights to any judge or government, particularly some large, centralized power structure. We shoulder the responsibility for protecting our rights. We simply cannot depend on a judge’s ruling – especially when that ruling bastardizes the entire system. We must focus our effort through the proper authority based on the constitutional delegation of power. A pragmatic appeal to centralized authority to “protect us” might yield a victory. But remember, Japan won Pearl Harbor, but it lost the war.

“Who will govern the governors? There is only one force in the nation that can be depended upon to keep the government pure and the governors honest, and that is the people themselves. They alone, if well informed, are capable of preventing the corruption of power, and of restoring the nation to its rightful course if it should go astray. They alone are the safest depository of the ultimate powers of government. – Jefferson

About Mike Maharrey

Michael Maharrey [send him email] is the Communications Director for the Tenth Amendment Center. He proudly resides in the original home of the Principles of '98 - Kentucky. See his blog archive here and his article archive here. He also maintains the blog, Tenther Gleanings.

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33 comments
KansasBright
KansasBright

I think what TaskForce16 is referring to is that in each states constitution is that they will support and defend the US Constitution. Admittedly I have not read all US state constitutions at this time, but I am almost halfway through. Surprisingly enough, a lot of those state constitutions put restrictions on those in the 3 state branches that are also not being followed. Surprise there, right? JK. Example: NY's Constituton: [Preamble] We The People of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our Freedom, in order to secure its blessings, DO ESTABLISH THIS CONSTITUTION. [Rights, privileges and franchise secured; power of legislature to dispense with primary elections in certain cases] Section 1. No member of this state shall be disfranchised, or deprived of any of the rights or privileges secured to any citizen thereof, unless by the law of the land, or the judgment of his or her peers... Freedom of speech and press; criminal prosecutions for libel] §8. Every citizen may freely speak, write and publish his or her sentiments on all subjects, being responsible for the abuse of that right; and no law shall be passed to restrain or abridge the liberty of speech or of the press. In all criminal prosecutions or indictments for libels, the truth may be given in evidence to the jury; and if it shall appear to the jury that the matter charged as libelous is true, and was published with good motives and for justifiable ends, the party shall be acquitted; and the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the fact. Security against unreasonable searches, seizures and interceptions] §12. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. The right of the people to be secure against unreasonable interception of telephone and telegraph communications shall not be violated, and ex parte orders or warrants shall issue only upon oath or affirmation that there is reasonable ground to believe that evidence of crime may be thus obtained, and identifying the particular means of communication, and particularly describing the person or persons whose communications are to be intercepted and the purpose thereof. (New. Adopted by Constitutional Convention of 1938 and approved by vote of the people November 8, 1938.) ARTICLE XII (9), Defense [Defense; militia] Section 1. The defense and protection of the state and of the United States is an obligation of all persons within the state. The legislature shall provide for the discharge of this obligation and for the maintenance and regulation of an organized militia. This one rates a sad laugh. Why? Because the people are the militia. Notice the word "obligation". [Oath of office; no other test for public office] Section 1. Members of the legislature, and all officers, executive and judicial, except such inferior officers as shall be by law exempted, shall, before they enter on the duties of their respective offices, take and subscribe the following oath or affirmation: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the constitution of the United States, and the constitution of the State of New York, and that I will faithfully discharge the duties of the office of ......, according to the best of my ability;" and no other oath, declaration or test shall be required as a qualification for any office of public trust, except that any committee of a political party may, by rule, provide for equal representation of the sexes on any such committee, and a state convention of a political party, at which candidates for public office are nominated, may, by rule, provide for equal representation of the sexes on any committee of such party. (Amended by Constitutional Convention of 1938 and approved by vote of the people November 8, 1938.) For a good read - and occasionally a sad laugh, read the oath each state requires. Example - Preamble and California's Oath of Office: California State Constitution Art 1 Dec Of Rights, Sec 1: All people are by nature free and independent and have inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy. Art 1 Dec Of Rights, Sec 26: The provisions of this Constitution are mandatory and prohibitory, unless by express words they are declared to be otherwise. Art 20 Misc Subjects, Sec 3: Members of the Legislature, and all public officers and employees, executive, legislative, and judicial, except such inferior officers and employees as may be by law exempted, shall, before they enter upon the duties of their respective offices, take and subscribe the following oath or affirmation: "I, ______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about to enter. "And I do further swear (or affirm) that I do not advocate, nor am I a member of any party or organization, political or other- wise, that now advocates the overthrow of the Government of the United States or of the State of California by force or violence or other unlawful means; that within the five years immediately preceding the taking of this oath (or affirmation) I have not been a member of any party or organization, political or other-wise, that advocated the overthrow of the Government of the United States or of the State of California by force or violence or other unlawful means except as follows: ________________________________________________________________ (If no affiliations, write in the words "No Exceptions") and that during such time as I hold the office of ______________________________________________ I will not advocate nor become (name of office) a member of any party or organization, political or otherwise, that advocates the overthrow of the Government of the United States or of the State of California by force or violence or other unlawful means." And no other oath, declaration, or test, shall be required as a qualification for any public office or employment. "Public officer and employee" includes every officer and employee of the State, including the University of California, every county, city, city and county, district, and authority, including any department, division, bureau, board, commission, agency, or instrumentality of any of the foregoing. Funny, right?

OnTheMark
OnTheMark like.author.displayName 1 Like

The restriction imposed by the 2nd Amendment is not limited to Congress or to the Federal government. We know that such a limitation does exist for the 1st Amendment because the wording of the limitation is explicit and irrefutable. It cannot be considered a coincidence or an accident that the 2nd Amendment does not include any limitation on the restriction. Therefore, the restriction must be understood to apply to government at all levels.

DwayneStovall
DwayneStovall

 @OnTheMark

 Try reading the preamble, or better yet, the debates of the 1st Congress associated with the Bill of Rights.  The Bill of Rights, in its entirety, is a limitation on the federal only. 

TaskForce16
TaskForce16

 @DwayneStovall  @OnTheMark

 Not necessarily. Most of the "Bill of Rights" are not specific, in their wording, as to what level of government they apply to.

 

The 1st Amendment starts off with "Congress shall make no law...", specifically aimes at the Federal legislative body. However, we may find that the States have also limited themselves, via their respective State Constitutions, concerning the issues contained in the !st Amendment of the US Constitution.

 

The rest of the 1st 10 Amendments (AKA Bill of Rights) are NOT specific, in what level of government they apply to. So, we should assume that these limitations were intended to apply to ALL levels of governence AND to the people as well, in particular the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments.

 

And as a reminder, All amendments that have been made to the US Constitution are PART OF the Constitution, and in so being, are the "supreme Law of the Land", in accordance to Article VI, paragraph 2 of the US Constitution (the "Supremacy Clause").

DwayneStovall
DwayneStovall

@TaskForce16

I have no contradictions --none. You on the other hand, consistently contradict yourself.

 

You say things like "the States intended to honor the enumerated rights of the individual people within their jurisdictions." That is pure bovine dung. I mean really, what does that even mean? Not only is that statement fiction, it has zero --ZERO-- to do with the Bill of Rights and its purpose, which was to FURTHER RESTRICT THE FEDERAL.

 

You speak of "keeping to the text of the Constitution" then follow with some made up views that are polar opposite to the language of the framers and ratifyers. You support incorporating the Bill of Rights onto the States, then you gripe about the judicial branch ruling using public opinion instead of the Constitution as written.

 

Face it fella, you are a nationalist in federalist clothing.

 

DwayneStovall
DwayneStovall

 @onetenther  @TaskForce16  @OnTheMark

The federalist and ant-federalist papers are great resources in addition to the well documented debates held in the individual States which gave the clearest description of what the people agreed to when they ratified the federal Constitution.

onetenther
onetenther

 @TaskForce16  @DwayneStovall  @OnTheMark The federalist papers never advocated for giving the federal government unlimited power.  Just a few in order for it to carry out its purpose which was to deal with foreign affairs.  It could not do those things unless it ws granted some powers.  The federalist arguments that are used in courts are simply a way of helping us understand what the constitution means.  It is not the same as other attempts to use foreign documents to expand the powers of the constitution. 

TaskForce16
TaskForce16

 @DwayneStovall

 ummm.....How have the States been "in default" of this compact, if, as you claim, the BOR are not applicable to the States? You seem to contradict yourself in your arguments, sir.

 

But I agree, since the States did submit the proposed Bill of Rights and did ratify them, it would seem, to the reasoanbly minded that the States intended to honor the enumerated rights of the individual people within their jurisdictions. Somewhere along the line, in many if not all States, to one degree or another, they have fallen down on this.

 

Who's to blame for this? I'd say it is the "PEOPLES" fault. We, in our ignorance of the Constitution (or in some cases blatant defiance), have failed to hold our elected governments feet to the fire, that is within the Constitution. In Fact, generally speeking, it has been We the People that have failed to hold ourselves to the Constitution.

DwayneStovall
DwayneStovall

 @TaskForce16  @onetenther  @OnTheMark

I happen to be the only one "keeping to the text and language of the Constitution itself".  You think the Bill of Rights applies to the States.  I said you are incorrect because the language of the Preamble to the Bill of Rights is crystal clear. You can't keep to the text and language any more than that.

DwayneStovall
DwayneStovall

 @TaskForce16  States such as Massachusetts amended their Constitutions to recognize the limited and enumerated powers they agreed to delegate to the newly formed general government.And BTW: Yes, the NEW Congress debated and ratified the Bill of Rights.  Nice story.  What you so obviously avoid is the direct and clear language used by the NEW congress in the preamble to explain the purpose of the Bill of Rights, which was to further limit the general government only. 

 

If you are not a nationalist, you do a very good impression of one.  From your comments, I think you are extremely confused about the meaning of republicanism and federalism.   You are right about one thing; the federal Constitution is a contract (compact) between the States.  It is a compact in which every State in the Union has long since been in default.   

TaskForce16
TaskForce16

 @onetenther  @DwayneStovall  @OnTheMark

 onetenther, you have brought up a great point. Our government is NOT functioning as it was intended, in accordance with the Constitution. The judiciary wasn't given powers of "judicial review", by the Constitution, to begin with. It gave itself that power a long time ago. This might have worked out OK, "IF" the courts had based their rulings strickly in accordence with the text and language of the Constitution itself. BUT, it has NOT done that. Instead, the courts have ruled too often based on either popular opinion or the justices own biases, which often ignores the Constitution.

 

Plus, the courts have allowed arguments brought forth to stand, that were based on documentations outside the Constitution, mainly from the "Federalist Papers". Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the "Federalists" they guys that advocated giving the Fed Government more powers than the Constitution delegated to it? Why is it that no one wants to reffer to the "anti-Federalist Papers" that advocated LESS powers be given to the Fed Gov than was delegated to it by the Constitution? If I'm correct about the "Federalists" and the "Anti-Federalists", then it would seem that using the "Federalists" arguments before the courts is what has gotten us into the mess we're in today. And maybe, that is why  Dwayne Stovall likes to go to said arguments rather than keeping to the text and language of the Constitution itself.

onetenther
onetenther like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @TaskForce16  @DwayneStovall  @OnTheMark   I hate to jump in but the supposed incorporation doctrine is actual has not been used to restrain the federal government but to unfairly restrain the state governments.  It has been used to tell states things they can't do but the same courts that use the same BOR to tell states what to do rarely apply the same standard to the federal government.   The courts have told the states that they can't infringe on the 2nd amendent but there is no corresponding ruling against the federal.  By applying the BOR to the states the courts have used it as an excuse to strip states of their own right to pass laws that they deem is appropriate.

TaskForce16
TaskForce16

 @DwayneStovall  @OnTheMark

 Dwayne, I'll ask you. Why did a few of the States have to amend parts of their own Constitutions, to come into compliance with the US Constitution, after it and the "Bill of Rights" were ratified?

 

BTW, the "Bill of Rights" were among over 120 proposed amendments to the Constitution, submitted by the States, after the main body of the Constitution was ratified in 1787. Only 12 were passed by the NEW Constitutional Congress and presented to the States for ratification (10 ratified in 1791). And of the 2 that didn't make the cut in 1791, one of them was finally ratified in 1992, becoming the 27th Amendmnet.

 

No, I'm not a nationalist. I consider the US Constitution as a contract between the States as to what powers the Fed would have and how the new republic would function. And as a contract, I try to glean an interpretation strictly from the text and language therein.

DwayneStovall
DwayneStovall

 @TaskForce16  @OnTheMark

That is exactly what I am saying, and it is also exactly what the framers of the Bill of Rights agreed to. 

 

What you are proposing is that we simply disregard the actual words of those that created, debated, and ratified the Bill of Rights, and accept the 20th century "interpretation" of the 14th amendment. 

 

You don't seem to understand the most basic issue here.  If we allow the unconstitutional application of the federal Bill of Rights to the States, you jettison the Republican form of government based in federalism the ratifyers agreed to.  What you are actually supporting is a gigantic National Government that completely removes the sovereignty and independence of every State.

 

I'll ask you the same thing I ask my own attorney.  Why in the world does every State have their own Constitution with their own version of a Bill of Rights, if the founders intended for the States to answer to a single federal Constitution?  Why did they make the federal limited?  What is the purpose of the 10th amendment?

 

You are a nationalist and don't even know it...or maybe you do.

TaskForce16
TaskForce16

 @DwayneStovall  @OnTheMark

 Dwayne, it appears that your interpretation would restrain only the Federal government from, say, infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms, but not the States themselves. Is that what you are saying?

 

If so, what if ALL the States decided to dissarm the citizens of thier respective jurisdictions? Wouldn't that make the 2nd Amendment a  totally imputant protection of an unalienable right of the people?

 

I think you put too much imphases on the Preamble of the US Constitution and the introductary notice to the States which was sent with the 1st 10 amendments to the Constitution for ratification.

 

The US Constitution, Article I through Article VII, and ALL Amendments that have been ratified since, is the legally binding part of said document. The Preamble is merely a brief description of the document.

Austin Holthaus
Austin Holthaus

@DwayneStovall @TaskForce16 @OnTheMark Well said DwayneStoval...the historical agrees. "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." ~ John Adams, 'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials,' December 1770

DwayneStovall
DwayneStovall

 @TaskForce16  @DwayneStovall  @OnTheMark

So you simply refuse to take the preamble to mean what it so clearly says? The members of the 1st Congress knew exactly what it was intended for and stated it ever so clearly.  The BOR was implemented because the States "expressed a desire" "in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its --ITS-- powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added."  The "institution" they are writing about is clearly the newly formed government and nothing else.

TaskForce16
TaskForce16 like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @williamschooler 

Please read the excert I provided carefully, particularly the part where it says, "and the Laws of the United States WHICH SHALL BE IN PURSUANCE THEREOF:" This means that congress, being the sole law making body/branch of the Fed government, is not to make any laws that violate any part of the US Constitution. Nor can congress expand the powers of the Fed government beyond those enumerated in Article I, Section 8. Neither can the Executive or Judicial branches of the Fed government. What powers the Fed Gov does not have delegated to it by the Constitution, of course, are reserved to the States or to the people (10th Amendment).

 

The respective States still have many powers reserved to them, that they can exercise within their own jurisdictions. State Constitutions may also limit these powers. The 1st 8 Amendments to the US Constituion appear to me to enumerate certain inalienable rights of the people (individually) that must be protected, to prevent tyranny. The 9th Amendment protects all other unenumerated rights retained by the People (This is one most people are not aware of and often violate, by attempting to get government to prohibit the activities of other people, just because they don't agree with it). The 10th Amendment, then protects States Rights (at least it's suppose to).

 

Since the US Constitution (this includes ALL of the Amendmnets) is the "supreme Law of the Land", the Federal government AND the State governments are prohibited from violating it, in particular, our enumerated rights established within the US Constitution. But this still leaves quite a bit of leeway for State and individual soveriegnty, provided that We the People fervantly enforce the Constitution upon ALL levels of government (Fed/State/Local). 

 

Are you aware, that after the US Constitution and Bill of Rights were ratified, several States had to amend their own Constitutions/laws to be "in Pursuance" of the US Constitution? Are you aware, that there were 128 proposed amendments to the original Constitution sent to the 1st Constitutional Congress? Of those, only 12 were passed by congress and presented to the States for ratification. Only 10 were ratified by the States, as the Bill of Rights. The 27th Amendment, ratified in 1992, was one of the original 12 amendments presented to the States, that wasn't ratified in 1791 with the other 10.

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@TaskForce16

Wow, you memorized every word and every word is very specific for what reason exactly? Federal Authority or federal Limits? Please share with us.

 

Tell me why we should have a constitution at all without reciting it, what purpose does it serve in your own words as you live it daily?

 

What is the basis for all these combinations of words and articles in a document, the law or Liberty?

 

I could have recited it also, only I chose the living it out and the reasons for which I do, I am looking to find out if you are able to.

 

TaskForce16
TaskForce16 like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @WilliamSchooler

 1) Both, The Constitution delegates limited authority/powers to the Fed Government. The States are also limited in theirauthority over their jurisdictions by the Bill of Rights, and the subsequent Amendments concerning civil rights.

 

2) The framers constructed the Constitution with self-governence by the people in mind. Before they wrote and sent the Declaration of Independence to King George, they were concerned about whether the people in this new land were capable of living in such a independent self governing fashion, as soveriegn people. After realizing that the people had gone through a sort of "moral revolution" they decided that the people were indeed ready. Being an independently soveriegn individual requires personal responsibility and self-governence, by the people. As I've studied the Constitution, I see this theme within its text and language. The powers delegated to the Fed are indeed limited. There are far more powers of governence that have been left to the States or to the people. Yet, the rights of the people, enumerated in the Constitution, are not to be infringed upon by either the Fed or State gov's, nor by the people.

 

3) The Constitution was constructed to be a contract (or compact) between the States as to the powers the Fed would have, while reserving other powers/rights to the States (allowing State soveriegnty) or to the people (preserving individual soveriegnty and self-governence - LIBERTY).  Law, I believe was to be limited and restricted to governing those that self-govern themselves poorly or infringed on the rights of others, protecting liberty for all. As I see it, according to the Constitution, we, as individuals, shoudl be able to do as we please, as long as our activities cause no injury (financial/physical) to others or otherwise infringe on the rights of others.

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@TaskForce16

Thank you TaskForce, big difference in your communications and I see you view in a much clearer light.

 

1)Yes you are very correct it does combine a limited Governing body by the people with the people in a uniting of states by such an agreement or contract if you wish. But agreement has far more basis in the state if Being independent and means I have the choice of being in agreement or out of agreement by my own independent choice.

2)Yes some of the framers did and some did not, some were still very much part of the king and were very repulsed by the idea of Independence and would do everything in their power to obstruct language and create interpretation over clear understanding because it worked so well Pre King George the 3rd. As we have intruders now so were there intruders then and Thinking this not the case is a misfortune of truth.

 

Being Independent or a state of independence when lived means to decide for self which is the exact same as sovereign individual authority of choice so being independent is being sovereign and this is very clear if you investigate it.

 

3)The constitution was constructed in such a manner by some but not all. Some knew contracts were legal terms under British Rule (the old way of life) while others new individual choice in agreement was the force of all things done or achieved and that no one would be bound by such an agreement should this (Contract) agreement go against Independence of choice, that when it did so The Sovereign could indeed impede this action opposing them to stop from reverting to the old terms of the king for which we separated. This act, this part of this agreement would indeed keep Liberty present and stop any dominance over the independent.

 

 

So you see I have a much different view and this does not say you were wrong, Miss lead yes, but your interpretation is just that and is a popular one among Constitutionalists.

 

My difference as you can clearly see is by the basis of truth, this truth was fully written in the original Draft of the Declaration of Independence as a documented truth or statements of facts that could not be denied by the examples and the basis or principles that fully backed up and fully supported this state of BEING. Being independent means very clearly to be me by my choice ability as capable of such and the doing of such without intrusion and this did not come without instruction, Independence had 3 main parts of total support and would guide should it be implemented and they were that all choice making would support Life, not harm it, not lie to it, not dominate it or control it in any other manner. By this choice you would support Liberty an act of limiting any other from imposing on another, and last this choice would fully support the Pursuit of our imaginations to create as many supporting ideas to keep Independence alive and well in as many communities that would fully display this example of being independent.

 

This was all done by one man through the listening and understanding of others, by the personal life experiences and lessons well observes and learned and by gathering all the evidence to reenforce such a separation and the WHY it should well be done, which was the entirely of the original draft. It also came with clear instructions on what to do if we returned to the old way. The agreed upon Declaration of Independence that was signed by the many was an alteration of statement and is full proof some existed in this group on the side of the King.

 

Now this is my statement of fact as I personally went through all of this on such a huge level I am unable to deny what I found. The biggest find of all time, this document was intended to be used as the guide for all choice in this Republic if Independence and the Republic system of Governance was chosen but did in fact have past failures which Independence was to assist to reenforce as viable by the examples it would expose.

 

The problem, during the enactment of the Constitution the Declaration of Independence was not used as the guide post for all articles and in doing so would change the course back to its origin back to full authority as all prior republics reverted to by training all as a democracy and not a Republic of independent at all.

 

Today I can show you by mass majority, mass interpretation and mass agreement this to be the entire truth and the very reason we are sitting in a dictatorship. Since no example can exists without its decisions and agreements give this view total validation that indeed the truth was not used and abuse and lies and secrecy were all implemented at its beginning giving no example of any Independent sustaining practice of anything. Thus no comparison is in view to discount diversions and the lies.

 

The Declaration of Independence which I have personally rewritten is this answer in its entirety, because all in it is exactly as I found it to be revealed. We are not here because we applied our Declaration of Independence as our decision guidance we are here because we did not and our constitution was allowed to be altered and distorted to authority over and not the limit under the independent state of being.

 

The refusal for so many to look, to review and to understand this is all the living proof I need. My persistence is simply a truth I am unable to deny which carries a great deal of Responsibility no matter how a hard it shall be. A feeling Thomas Jefferson had to go through and I feel his pain.

 

 

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

Well Mr. Taskforce this being the case

I have to dissagree with Mr. Maharrey's contention the Constitution does not trump State Law.

Article VI, paragraph 2, of the US Constitution:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be in Pursuance thereof;....shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges of every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

 

How does this act or this article support Independence of a state if I make laws that trump Sovereignty?

 

The 2nd Amendment does by securing the ability to bare arms should some other authority make up otherwise by enforcing dependence on the people and these Sovereign refuse this enforcement. This entirely supports The state OF Independence within each state.

 

According to what you say all these articles can trump Laws by the state and by what act is this to validate THIS state of Independence in a state?

 

The constitution I live LIMITs what and government body may do in opposition to my independence, to the state of my independence with in a state. That these statements are to keep in place such limits for I am able to protect myself and need no protection unless under attach by some foreign or domestic then more support may be plausible otherwise my state of living is to be independent of any other authority but that of my own.

 

This is all very clearly stated in my declaring such a state of being independent, this is also verifiable in the statement of facts in the Declaration of Independence which this constitution is entirely comprised of by said principles known as the unalienable rights or principled choice guidance.

 

TaskForce16
TaskForce16

I have to dissagree with Mr. Maharrey's contention the Constitution does not trump State Law. Let me reffer you to exerts from Article VI, paragraph 2, of the US Constitution:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be in Pursuance thereof;....shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges of every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

 

The 2nd Amendment IS part of the Constitution of the United States, therefor, it IS the supreme Law of the Land, State Laws notwithstanding. This means that ALL Laws, both Federal and State, that infringes on "the right of the people to keep and bear arms", by anyone, is a violation of the 2nd Amendment.

 

I agree with Mr. Maharrey's statement that "The Consitution does not give us Rights". This is true, what it does do is that it recognizes and insures that our rights are protected, from both the Fed and State governments. But it is up to the People to make sure said rights are respected. We the People have failed to do this.

Austin Holthaus
Austin Holthaus

@TaskForce16 Read the preamble of the Bill of Rights, it makes it clear that the People of the several States wished to ensure the authority granted was not stretched beyond what was delegated. State constitutions already protected the People's right to bare arms. The People sought to clarify that there is to be no misunderstanding that the Federal government, as an agent of the People of the several States in enumerated functions, could not infringe on that right and the others listed in Amendments 1 - 10.

TaskForce16
TaskForce16

 @Austin Holthaus  @TaskForce16

 @Austin Holthaus I think there is one State that DOES NOT recognize the Right to Bear arms in its Constitution. I know that the rest of the States do have their own versions of the 2nd, however, requiring that residents apply for permits to bear arms in public is a violation of the 2nd. There are no qualifiers or exceptions in the text of the 2nd Amendment as to who can or can't "keep and bear arms", nor says we have to "get permission" from our States to bear arms in public. Requirements to get a carry permit, turns a "right" into a "privilage". Currently, there are only 5 States that are considered Constitutional Carry States. Alaska, Arizona, Vermont, and Wyoming do not require a permit to carry concealed or openly, while Ky does not require a permit to carry openly (including in your vehicle). 

KansasBright
KansasBright

 @TaskForce16  @Austin Holthaus  True, except that concealed carry can be regulated, but OPEN carry cannot.

 

The Efficiency of Militia Bill H.R. 11654: It further states: "The militia encompasses every able-bodied male between the ages of 18 and 45. All members of the unorganized militia have the absolute personal right and 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms of ANY type, and as MANY as they can afford to buy." (my caps)

 

State v. Chandler and State v. Reid: Concealed weapons bans are constitutional as a manner of time, place, and manner restriction since, while arms bearing is an individual right...

 

State v. Buzzard: ... the government might not impose regulations that interfered with the ability to resist tyranny, which a ban on concealed carry did not.

 

Adams: "You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe”

 

Jefferson: "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed … "

 

... The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies... and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.’ Story

 

Cockrum v. State: “The right of a citizen to bear arms, in lawful defense of himself or the State, is absolute. He does not derive it from the State government. It is one of the high powers delegated directly to the citizen, and is excepted out of the general powers of government. A law cannot be passed to infringe upon or impair it, because it is above the law, and independent of the lawmaking power.”

 

Nunn vs. State: 'The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the milita, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free State. .. any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes this right.

 

T. Cooley: "The right is general. It may be supposed... that the right to keep and bear arms was only guaranteed to the militia; but this would be an interpretation not warranted by the intent. The militia... consists of those persons who, under the laws, are liable to the performance of military duty, and are officered and enrolled for service when called upon.... If the right were limited to those enrolled, the purpose of the guarantee might be defeated altogether by the action or the neglect to act of the government it was meant to hold in check. The meaning of the provision... that the people, from whom the militia must be taken, shall have the right to keep and bear arms, and they need no permission or regulation of law for the purpose... there is an individual right, meant to buttress the militia, but not limited to its enrolled members – since the government may define who is in the militia, and thus the right would have no value against abusive government if so limited... that a legislature can outlaw weapons that have no militia/military function. It can proscribe brass knuckles and billy clubs... outlawing machine guns, assault rifles...  would involve infringement of the right's very core because the people are the militia.A government could likely restrict concealed carry because concealment has no particular link to political resistance, but it could not restrict open carry or use. One of the traditional purposes of the militia is law enforcement -"to execute the Laws of the Union."

Aymette v. State: That individual’s have the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of: "to keep in awe those who are in power.”

 

Tench Coxe: “Who are the militia? are they not ourselves... Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American...The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people”.

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler like.author.displayName 1 Like

@TaskForce16

 

Thus some states do not support Independence as well by their own actions and the people of that state are not standing as the limits stated in the Constitution of this Republic or for a more perfect union. But then again we know many of the sates have infiltrators as does federal Government by not using Our Declaration of Independence and insisting on Corporatism as the practice of sustaining. Since many states around this union have Debt without defined budget it can be show they too are not limited by their own constitutions.

 

No state Government or Federal Government shall take up authority over me as a independent state of being as declared which trumps all constitutional corruptness because laws that directly oppose my Independence, my Liberty  (to be free form such Nonsense) and my ability to pursue my imagination is in direct conflict with my Unalienable rights which supersedes all other rulers and rulings. Therefore no other can stop me from having or holding up arms to keep my liberty fully in place against ENEMIES to my Independent State of Being foreign or Domestic and Liberty shall not exist without MY Independence and I don’t care how many words and symbols you gather organize or sputter.

 

Show me this is not the case because I have no doubts it is.

 

The second amendment says all of you shall not get in my way to hold and bare arms, which supports what about me again?

 

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

Finally, clarity there were modifications or alterations to something so specific yet demonized which I personally will not stop until we stand in the same direction of total correction and will clarify with my next statement of fact.

 

Ending the argument of the supposed constitutionalist by the display of our present poor example, Dip stick Obama.

 

Actually it turns out that our founders had corruption then as we do now and our primary document was entirely disregarded by most, for Liberty through a Constitution would only be present in a Republic of Independent citizenry able to LIMIT all of them by its total application. The very alterations of this document of constituted limits proof this is simply the case, for no example may exist without its true cause.

 

Since the beginning of the constitution is it visible, choice by Independent principle was not used going forward or no alteration to increase Government would be a possibility or an example of expanded government.

 

Results never lie, stop looking at all the words, look at the actions and look at the effects and ask yourself what is an example and what is the truth, what you think or what you can show as working or not?

 

Ron Paul in his infinite wisdom has lead the charge and shown beyond any doubt at all, that no corrupt Government can be made un corrupt. We can see from todays example of Government what yesterdays example of Government was and the two no different in any manner.

These examples cannot possibly be the lie so why do we continue to correct what is not possible, why is it, we do not begin anew?

 

The Declaration of Independence has been rewritten to lead the charge to a new beginning. New being not of old practice and revolution in its full sense means unquestionably “new beginning” and does not mean the act of WAR, that practice is as old as the hills and has not achieved anything of grandeur I assure you. This does not say not to hold the line if under attack, but does say do not promote the war which so many are preparing for, only the old Corporate Government is hoping for just that. In fact they are instigating it.

 

All of you, myself included are responsible for setting a great example to our children, what we allow today is so poor it is sickness. We are the changing force of this nation if we begin to act like it and stop playing their game and start designing our game. Those of you that want to call me names, get in line and the rest of you who wish to be this future lets build our teams and plays because its Time for the Super Bowl Of Independence like never displayed before.

 

Now, are you in or are you OUT? Team building starts this January 2013

If you are not in you are outa here. Independence will exist with you or with out you, you decide.

 

DECISION TIME!

 

JamesKong
JamesKong

Would posting a sign at the edge of your property line stating:  "All Federal and State Laws end at the property line; Enter at your own risk", absolve you of any harm that becomes of a trespasser entering your property?

onetenther
onetenther

So what rights constitute 'privileges' and 'immunities'?  It is a much simpler question that, if answered, could shed some light on the 14th amendment.

Austin Holthaus
Austin Holthaus

@onetenther The most popular early explanation seems to come from Associate Justice Bushrod Washington in an 1823 court case.  However, there are problems w/his explanation (mostly that he simply used his own experience and understanding rather than the ratifiers or public understanding of the clause).  Also, to understand 1787 "P&I" may be different than 1866 "P&I".  

 

Rob Natelson has a VERY good scholarly article here: http://constitution.i2i.org/sources-for-constitutional-scholars/privileges-and-immunities/

In 1823, in Corfield v. Coryell Justice Bushrod Washington's (yes a relative of GW) provided listing of the "privileges and immunities" enjoyed by citizens of the United States:

“The inquiry is, what are the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states? We feel no hesitation in confining these expressions to those privileges and immunities which are, in their nature, fundamental; which belong, of right, to the citizens of all free governments; and which have, at all times, been enjoyed by the citizens of the several states which compose this Union, from the time of their becoming free, independent, and sovereign. What these fundamental principles are, it would perhaps be more tedious than difficult to enumerate. They may, however, be all comprehended under the following general heads: Protection by the government; the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right to acquire and possess property of every kind, and to pursue and obtain happiness and safety; subject nevertheless to such restraints as the government may justly prescribe for the general good of the whole.

The right of a citizen of one state to pass through, or to reside in any other state, for purposes of trade, agriculture, professional pursuits, or otherwise; to claim the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; to institute and maintain actions of any kind in the courts of the state; to take, hold and dispose of property, either real or personal; and an exemption from higher taxes or impositions than are paid by the other citizens of the state; may be mentioned as some of the particular privileges and immunities of citizens, which are clearly embraced by the general description of privileges deemed to be fundamental: to which may be added, the elective franchise, as regulated and established by the laws or constitution of the state in which it is to be exercised. These, and many others which might be mentioned, are, strictly speaking, privileges and immunities, and the enjoyment of them by the citizens of each state, in every other state, was manifestly calculated (to use the expressions of the preamble of the corresponding provision in the old articles of confederation) "the better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different states of the Union." 

18 MINUTES AGO

 

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@Austin Holthaus@onetenther

Well Mr. Austin, how good are you in putting this in your life terms versus legal terms written on pages? Its good you write so well, but how will you implement this in your present corrupt Government? How has this been going for the last 200 years exactly? I don’t disagree with what you are saying but what is your verification in your life experiences and its successes? You interested in getting out of the symbolism and interested in putting these in motion? I know I am and I know many others. Team building starts next month and we all need all the help we can get to create this new Republic. All new Beginnings take good open discussion and uniting our decisions and build agreements for all the words on all the pages in the universe are only as good as the activities for which they support.

 

I believe in the 10th Amendment in a just Peoples Governing body willing to live within the limits specified and none other, you?