Jefferson and Madison vs “Staff Writer”

Interestingly, opponents of nullification rarely, if ever, challenge James Madison and Thomas Jefferson’s reasoning head on.

Those who manage to get past the straw-man arguments centering around racism and the Civil War generally go straight to constitutional jurisprudence and Supreme Court rulings to make their case. But the principles of nullification articulated by Madison and Jefferson reject the authority of the Supreme Court as the final arbiter, based on the fundamental nature of delegated powers, and opponents never directly challenge their reasoning. Anti-nullifiers simply march right along declaring the doctrine fatally flawed with statements like this one by the author of an article published by the North Carolina Institute for Constitutional Law.

 “It has been flatly rejected and repudiated by a unanimous U.S. Supreme Court. Cooper v. Aaron, 358 U.S. 1, 17 (1958).”

Interestingly enough, the author is listed only as “Staff Writer.”

“Staff Writer” follows the lead of the SCOTUS and flatly rejects nullification as well, based primarily on the “supremacy” of the Supremes and a laundry list of other nullification opponents. He couldn’t make his utter disdain for the doctrine any clearer.

“Nullification has a dubious historical track record, finds no support in the Constitution, is clearly rejected by several constitutional provisions, lacks any serious legitimacy as a legal doctrine, and has been repudiated by the Supreme Court.  Reverence for the Constitution and the rule of law require rejection of the doctrine of nullification.”

The staffer deserves some credit. He does a fair job of presenting the history of nullification, even including the fact that northern states relied on the principles to battle the draconian fugitive slave laws in the 1850s. And for the most part, he resists the temptation to categorically paint nullification with the racist brush, taking a milder approach, asserting the principles have “a checkered past.”

But despite his reasoned approach and utilization of numerous academic references, the staffer falls into the same shallow arguments as his less sophisticated counterparts.

In general, the writer relies on a subtle method to make nullification seem unreasonable. In the introduction, he asserts “nullification has never been widely accepted as a solution to alleged unconstitutional federal actions” and builds on that premise throughout the article, creating the impression that no thinking person could possibly embrace the doctrine. For instance, he points out that 10 northern states flatly rejected the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions. But he leaves out important political context and never mentions that those same states embraced nullification just a decade later when politically expedient. Those same northern states that vehemently opposed nullification when it applied to the Alien and Sedition acts embraced the principles to resist Jefferson’s embargo, and later, military conscription during the War of 1812.

The illegitimacy of the staffer’s subtle reasoning becomes apparent when pulled out into the open. He tries to prove nullification flawed by arguing that “most people reject it,” as if most people denying a fact makes it untrue. Most people rejected the notion that the earth revolved around the sun for hundreds of years. Their doubts clearly didn’t alter the course of the planets.

The staff writer does attempt to make a “constitutional” argument against nullification, first asserting that the Supremacy Clause forbids state action against any federal act.

“The Supremacy Clause declares that federal laws are ‘the supreme Law of the Land…any Thing (sic) in the Constitution or Laws or any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.’ U.S. Const. art. VI, cl. 2”

Like almost every proponent of centralized power, the writer completely ignores a key phrase in the Supremacy Clause.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof…shall be the supreme Law of the Land. (Emphasis added)

Any federal act not “made in pursuance of the Constitution” does not stand as the supreme law of the land. It is, in fact, an illegal usurpation of power. The Supremacy clause does not bind state governments or the people to follow unconstitutional acts.

That leads to an important question: who decides constitutionality?

The North Carolina Institute for Constitutional Law staff writer insists the Supreme Court does. In fact, this stands as the cornerstone of his argument against nullification, as we’ve already seen.

The writer asserts that nullification lacks legitimacy because the Supreme Court says so, but the principles of nullification rest on the premise that the states, not the Supreme Court, make the final determination as to the constitutionality of an act. Jefferson spells this out in the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798.

That the several States composing, the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government…that the government created by this compact was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself; since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers; but that, as in all other cases of compact among powers having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress.

The staff writer’s position makes the created lord over the creator, insisting that the federal government gets to decide the extent of its own power. This makes as much sense as allowing a Cowboys player to serve as a referee in a football game between the Dallas and the New York Giants.

St. George Tucker wrote the first systematic commentary on the U.S. Constitution in 1803. It served as an important handbook for American law students, lawyers and judges in the first half of the nineteenth century. He grasped the absurdity of elevating the SCOTUS to the role of sole and final arbiter of the Constitution.

The Federal Government is the creature of the States. It is not a party to the Constitution, but the result of it – the creation of that agreement which was made by the States as parties. It is a mere agent, entrusted with limited powers for certain objects; which powers and objects are enumerated in the Constitution. Shall the agent be permitted to judge of the extent of his own powers, without reference to his constituent?”

James Madison expounded on this idea in the Report of 1800.

“The (Virginia) resolution supposes that dangerous powers, not delegated, may not only be usurped and executed by the other departments, but that the judicial department also may exercise or sanction dangerous powers beyond the grant of the Constitution; and, consequently, that the ultimate right of the parties to the Constitution, to judge whether the compact has been dangerously violated, must extend to violations by one delegated authority, as well as by another; by the judiciary, as well as by the executive, or the legislature.

“However true, therefore, it may be, that the judicial department, is, in all questions submitted to it by the forms of the Constitution, to decide in the last resort, this resort must necessarily be deemed the last in relation to the authorities of the other departments of the government; not in relation to the rights of the parties to the constitutional compact, from which the judicial as well as the other departments hold their delegated trusts. On any other hypothesis, the delegation of judicial power would annul the authority delegating it; and the concurrence of this department with the others in usurped powers, might subvert for ever, and beyond the possible reach of any rightful remedy, the very Constitution which all were instituted to preserve.”

Madison, Jefferson and Tucker grasp a simple but profoundly important concept: if the federal government gets to define the extent of its own authority, the federal government possesses unlimited power, leaving the people defenseless and without remedy when that government exercises powers it was never meant to have. Surely, that was not the intention of the ratifiers, who clearly stated that they understood the Constitution limited the new government to carefully prescribed roles.

Of course, our writer will quickly assert that Madison renounced the principles of nullification in the 1830s, pointing out that he vigorously objected to John Calhoun’s interpretation of the doctrine to nullify the “Tariff of Abominations.” But the staffer apparently never looked deeply into Madison’s later arguments against nullification. In fact, he addressed as specific scheme concocted by South Carolina asserting state nullification bound other states.

In his 1835 Notes on Nullification, Madison wrote:

That the doctrine of nullification may be clearly understood it must be taken as laid down in the Report of a special committee of the House of Representatives of S. C. in 1828. In that document it is asserted, that a single State has a constitutional right to arrest the execution of a law of the U. S. within its limits; that the arrest is to be presumed right and valid, and is to remain in force unless ¾ of the States, in a Convention, shall otherwise decide.  

In other words, Madison was not objecting to the principles of nullification in general, but the specific application created by South Carolina. Did Madison reject nullification outright? No. He did agree with our writer that it was outside of the constitutional structure itself. But he continued to hold that it was a legitimate act when all remedies prescribed by the Constitution fail to restrain usurped power i.e. through the courts, legislative remedies or at the ballot box. He went on to write:

She (Virginia) asserted moreover & offered her proofs that the States had a right in such cases, to interpose, first in their constituent character to which the govt of the U. S. was responsible, and otherwise as specially provided by the Constitution; and further, that the States, in their capacity of parties to and creators of the Constitution, had an ulterior right to interpose, notwithstanding any decision of a constituted authority; which, however it might be the last resort under the forms of the Constitution in cases falling within the scope of its functions, could not preclude an interposition of the States as the parties which made the Constitution and, as such, possessed an authority paramount to it.

In this view of the subject there is nothing which excludes a natural right in the States individually, more than in any portion of an individual State, suffering under palpable and insupportable wrongs, from seeking relief by resistance and revolution.

So you see; Madison never actually turned his back on the fundamental principle of nullification – resistance.  In fact, he even outlined the process.

The plain answer is, that the remedy is the same under the government of the United States as under all other Govts. established & organized on free principles. The first remedy is in the checks provided among the constituted authorities; that failing the next is in the influence of the Ballot-boxes & Hustings; that again failing, the appeal lies to the power that made the Constitution, and can explain, amend, or remake it. Should this resort also fail, and the power usurped be sustained in its oppressive exercise on a minority by a majority, the final course to be pursued by the minority, must be a subject of calculation, in which the degree of oppression, the means of resistance, the consequences of its failure, and consequences of its success must be the elements.

The North Carolina Institute for Constitutional Law advocates for a supreme federal authority, something the ratifiers of the Constitution never intended. They believed they were creating a federal government with limited powers and that all other authority would remain right where it was – with the state governments and the people. Several ratifying conventions stated this explicitly. Take the New York ratifying document.

That the powers of government may be reassumed by the people whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness; that every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the departments of the government thereof, remains to the people of the several states, or to their respective state governments, to whom they may have granted the same.

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The principles of nullification logically flow out of the separation of power between the states and the general government that created the federal government in the first place, and the secondary delegation of enumerated powers that define its authority and put the original grant of power into effect. Nullification simply asserts that power ultimately remains with the people of the several states, and that they have a right to take action when the general government they created acts outside of its delegated powers. Nullification does not stand outside of the constitutional system; it is fundamental to it. To deny nullification is to deny the sovereignty of the people of the states, which is to deny the very foundation of the American system. If one accepts the construct of the Union as Madison, Jefferson and most importantly the ratifying convention delegates understood it, nullification logically follows.

When the federal government takes on power it was never given, the people and the states must possess a remedy in the last resort. Nullification morally, philosophically and constitutionally stands as the rightful remedy.

“Where powers are assumed which have not been delegated, a nullification of the act is the rightful remedy: that every State has a natural right in cases not within the compact, (casus non fœderis) to nullify of their own authority all assumptions of power by others within their limits: that without this right, they would be under the dominion, absolute and unlimited, of whosoever might exercise this right of judgment for them.” – Jefferson

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77 comments
ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @gypsynovus  Thanks for sharing my perspective !  I hope you come to understand and accept the need to present / make one's case in the most civil manner while rationalizing with the most credible sources  .   If you didn't know this to be my perspective before let this be a representation for it now .

gypsynovus
gypsynovus

Are you by any chance a in a sanitarium?

gypsynovus
gypsynovus

Thorizine for you.  Coffee for me.  We'll try the 10th tomorrow!

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @gypsynovus WOW !    Compelling reasoning !    Do go on , I love a good MYSTERY !  You've got me on the edge of my seat now !  Don't leave a "bro" hangin' now , come on ! !   Is it Mr Plum in the library with the candelstick ? Please !   PLEASE !  I'm beggin' you !  Give me MORE  !

gypsynovus
gypsynovus

If 9 words and a question mark confuse you, don't you think you might be making this more complicated by asking for clarification on a question that already has you overwhelmed?

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @gypsynovus Your message is too brief and vague for me to know what you mean  / what you are referring to ( previous subject / topic ) as usual , please elaborate .

Monorprise
Monorprise

"The plain answer is, that the remedy is the same under the government of the United States as under all other Govts. established & organized on free principles. The first remedy is in the checks provided among the constituted authorities; that failing the next is in the influence of the Ballot-boxes & Hustings; that again failing, the appeal lies to the power that made the Constitution, and can explain, amend, or remake it. Should this resort also fail, and the power usurped be sustained in its oppressive exercise on a minority by a majority, the final course to be pursued by the minority, must be a subject of calculation, in which the degree of oppression, the means of resistance, the consequences of its failure, and consequences of its success must be the elements."

 

In my mind the present election and subsequent actions of Washington are of great consequence in deterring our next action in the cause of liberty.  Let us hope that we do not have to device a way to win a shooting war against Washington.  

 

Let us hope if our appeals should fall upon deaf ears that we may be innovative enough as to find a way to force their respect without harming anyone, or risking much. We have in my mind a great many options for the board is filled with players none of which have the dominate position at this point in time, and most of which can be swayed to act in such ways as to benefit our cause.

gypsynovus
gypsynovus

Plain anything is dangerous language in competition with the constitution.  We're being Heckled and Jeckled out of our sovereignty, people standing around threatening all sorts of constitutional consequences with DC's BDSM culture club, Atramental Lodge 23, magnifying their progressive/liberal NSC agenda daily.  The ONLY mechanism we have left to fight this is the 2nd amendment, but there's no political leadership to initiate a demand to vacate letter with with Obama.  NATO's grooming middle east and south American troops for service, and Americans are spending their lasts days free eating at MacDonalds on discount coupons.

Monorprise
Monorprise

 @gypsynovus Let us not overstate matters Gypsy, let us not forget that men have always been more predisposed to suffer while evils are insufferable than to right themselves thou the risks of revolution.  

 

This is like it or not human nature and we need to learn to deal with it.

gypsynovus
gypsynovus

Could you repeat that?  I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

West Texan
West Texan like.author.displayName 1 Like

Michael's article, regarding the above mentioned staff writer, is one of the best I've read in defense of nullification. As an anti-federalist disciple, my firm belief is central government used every dirty method at their disposal to empower themselves at the expense of states' and individuals' constitutionally recognized  rights. For the past 100 years, socialist wannabe progressives have insidiously achieved  their perverse goals through SCOTUS precedent and "constitutionally undermining" power grabbing amendments. Talk about violating entrusted powers. Such deceptive overreach was justified through their "living constitution" lie. In other words, it's the social progressives way of changing our country's fundamental design to serve their own corrupted ends. Michael's well argued position with his excellent use of quotes fits very well within our original framework of federalism. Today's misinformed MSM, bureaucratic elites, and elected demagogues would benefit intellectually by heeding Michael's message. Bravo Zulu!     

James Erfurth
James Erfurth

Haven't read "Law of Nations" will kindle that one. Thanks. Spinning yes. Completely confused at this website and its intent. Won't bother you all any more, my apologies. Certainly don't make it easy on people trying to get a grasp on things. Being an Infantry Officer, small business owner and the teacher of my children you can understand the offense I have and down right disdain for this site now. Ending on this critical note this forum is offensive and not a service to the people that it pretends to serve. Maybe you should have an area or a direction to send people if the questions or observations from members of the military who have witnessed the end of civilization to go to instead of being berated because of my perception based off of experience verse your education. Good luck on your fight, not sure if were in the same one, but farewell.

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @James Erfurth  Perhaps you should have stated your background and level of understanding instead of making statements of interpretation as if it were fact ! Perhaps you should have suggested an interpretation as a guess to be clarified or corrected which would be proper and preferable to arguement of fact . That said no on is really trying to run you out on a rail , just responding with the same passion shared by you !  Don't go away because that is NOT the intent of anyone here based on comments made , just defensive rebukes and corrections . That's what these forums are all about ! =-) Peace !

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @James Erfurth Exactly the POINT ! You have NOT made yourself clear as to what YOUR point was and came across as Adverse to what this Country is Founded on and Represents ! The Places to be referred to WERE in fact given to you ! Yet , YOU still reveal YOUR Ignorant Confused and Confrontational Hateful Ugly nature in your so claimed "Civil" reply in closing . How utterly Hypocritical of YOU and Shame on YOU , for NOT KNOWING what the HELL  it  IS YOU  were supposed to be FIGHTING FOR !  Now go Fix your kids from all the Damage you have been doing to them right after you go Fix YOURSELF , or GO TO HELL !  There... how's that ? Was that informative enough for YOU ? And , on your way DOWN there ... GET a Clue as to your level of Hypocritical Sarcasm !

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @James Erfurth I have read the "Law of Nations" in part. It has some value. I don't know if you can Kindle it though. :( But it is online. I can find a good link.

 

Forums in political sites (or religious ones!) can get pretty inflammatory. Just don't let anything get under your skin and just respond in a calm, measured manner. Think of the verse in Romans about "trading good for evil" and you will go far. Also studying debate and the nature of logical fallacy. This is not only good for your career, but is an excellent way to understand the concepts so you can teach your children how to be better critical thinkers - probably one of the best gifts you can give them - how to think for themselves and recognize bullshit! :) Then keep to sites like this and use them to develop and practice your new-found skills.

James Erfurth
James Erfurth

Alright. I concede. Who are you talking to? Layout exactly your point. Is your point not to be understood by anyone other then you? Is your purpose then to expose your arrogance on what you personally deem right?

jazznut50
jazznut50

 @James Erfurth 

 

Once again, James you see to be "spinning".  No idea what you are talking about.  Take ThePainefulTruth's advice and start reading the documents he suggested.   Also might want to read the Law of Nations, which every nation signs onto. 

 

All those definitions you seem confused about are right there in black and white, if you are able to read and comprehend, but no one will spoon feed this stuff to you.

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @jazznut50  @James Erfurth There is no formal "Law of Nations" for any nation to sign into. The only thing that exists is a collection of international agreements that various nations may, or may not, agree with. It involves some generally accepted principles and common customs, but nothing is codified, nor is there any mechanism of enforcement beyond the desire of a nation to maintain good will with other nations. The documents suggested are of good historic value and DO give insight into what the Founders intended and meant with the actual codified law, but they are not law themselves - just advisory.

garvan
garvan

We have tools beside the 10th Amendment. In the  1991 Blatchford case, Justice Scalia wrote in the majority opinion, "We have understood the Eleventh Amendment to stand not so much for what it says, but for the presupposition of our constitutional structure which it confirms: that States entered the federal system with their sovereignty intact; that the judicial authority in Article III is limited by this sovereignty, and that a State will therefore not be subject to suit in federal court unless it has consented to that suit, either expressly, or in the 'plan of the convention.'" Based on this decision, the attorney general of Arizona made a huge mistake by even acknowledging the existence of the Justice Department suit against the duly enacted AB 1070. Same with the AG of Oklahoma, who went to court to fight the fed's overruling of their ballot measure which outlawed sharia law being used in state courts.

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @garvan Justice Scalia apparently ignores the writings of the opinion of the justices in the very first U.S. Supreme Court in Chisolm v. Georgia (1793). In fact he's been called on this in the Harvard Law Review (I'll dig up the link to the PDF article later if you want).

The Eleventh Amendment was an angry reaction by the State governments to that ruling. Just to give you more of a grasp of that ruling and the knowledge of that court about Constitutional principles,  one of them was a member of the Constitutional Convention that wrote it. What was that case about? A private citizen loaned the State of Georgia money to help in the fight against the British during the American Revolution. Georgia refused to pay. He died. His estate sued. The State of Georgia refused to show up to court, saying that the Supreme Court had no authority in the case and that the State of Georgia had "sovereign immunity" against any lawsuit - that the Government of Georgia was that sovereign and was not answerable to United States citizen for breach of trust unless they decided to allow it.  What did the United States Supreme Court rule? 1) That the people of the United States were this nation's sovereign. 2) That Georgia had to pay. :) That case is well worth reading. The Eleventh Amendment only took away the standing of the Supreme Court in certain cases. That's all the language says. It says NOTHING about sovereignty of the States, the Federal government,  or of any person. What some jurists have done is try to argue that it nullified the entire previous Supreme Court ruling and not just the part regarding the ability of the Supreme Court to preside in that type of case. The idea of U.S. citizens not being subjects of the State or Federal governments has been blocked even though that's exactly what the Founding Fathers have written was one of the main ideas of our nation and its form of government. The State governments NEVER had full sovereignty either under the Articles of Confederation or under the United States Constitution. 

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase   I am recommending this link ( HTTP://www.Constitution.org/ups/upshur.HTM ) " A Brief Enquiry into the True Nature and Character of Our Federal Government " by Abel Upshur , as my full explanation of why the last two sentences of your comment to Garvan , regarding Justice Scalia and you contention he has ignored the opinion of the first US Supreme Court when writing his opinion in the 1991 Blatchford case , are wrong . It is rather lengthy even though described as brief , and certainly more than I was willing to cover in explaining my position . I offer an apology for my overly "dramatic" comments in reply . 

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase Yeah right ! It's more like suffering through it which is why commentors like me often simply give strong rejection of something rather than go through the difficulty of explaining things in the fashion you assert ( proper referencing and credible sources and logical reasoning ,etc. ) which is quite tedious and wearisome to those of us who are not skilled / well practiced in these endeavors as would be those that have cause to do this for a living !  Sometimes it becomes rather difficult to keep aligned all the information required to put forth an explanation of this difficult a subject ( due to it's confusing and difficult to explain nature ) and takes everything I can muster to keep it from hairballing into a confused mass of  poor rhetoric . This is the case for this subject and the reason I've referred you to the best source , for explanation , that I know of ( why duplicate what is already there , right ? ) .  I'm learning to appreciate more the phrase "ignorance is bliss" !   Why do I keep doing this obsessive compulsive abuse to myself ? ! =-)

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @ThePainefulTruth I plan on reading your link. Been a busy few days - I plan on trying to sort through your last post too. I see you were very happily excited as you wrote it. :) (I do it too - tends to create some harder to read posts). I'll figure it out. I might have a few criticisms, but it's obvious you are doing research and trying to reason things through.

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @ThePainefulTruth LOL. That's a minor error. It's a common one too. :p No need to apologize for trivial ones since this forum doesn't allow edits.

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase Again another misstrike in the last posted commet of the word eminent , it is not  meant to be spelled eminant . =-P

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase I got the link and read the commentary . While I agree with the decision I can readily see that the explanations and reasonings given in arriving at the decision are prone to quite a few "logical fallacies" , for the very reasons you have previously expressed ( quite eloquently I might add ) to me regarding your contentions asserted in regard to my  previous comments here . This perspective is very well put ,clearly explained , and expressed in the referenced link I sent to you in my last reply .  Please read this "Enquiry" put forth by the eminant statesman Abel Upshur who made the effort to clear up this very debate on issues such as this because it was / became such a questionable issue  in the begining period of this country's governance .  The opinions expressed in the case of Chisolm v. Georgia was a reflection on the prevailing influences and "conditioning" of thought that gave place to erroneous interpretation of Our constitution . This  was explained and shown by credible references and sound reasoning ( which were quite often lacking ,unfortunately, by  such eminent statesmen as the first Supreme Court Justice John Jay and others such as Justice Joseph Story whose "Commentaries on the U.S. Constitution" are the very subject of the "Enquiry" I have referred you to with the link provided in my last reply to you )  , and by the written works / resolutions / and commentaries of both contemporaries and those who came to follow such as Thomas Jefferson , James Madison , Abel Upshur  and others once the issues were confronted , thoroughly  dealt with and put to rest ultimately  . This confusion in regard to "sovereignty" is due to lack of understanding that it is a matter of "relativity", one "entity" to another within the multifaceted scheme of governance . The understanding as explained is that there is a heirarchy / order when one "sovereign" deals with another . The "rule" is that NO "sovereign" may be violated  in regard to it's "proper" place / function / role / priority  according to well established dictum , until proven otherwise .  The link I referred you to IS the "proof" / "well established dictum"  which has been  "inconsistently" complied with to date . This example of "logical fallacy" can be seen in the debate over what is the correct interpretation of the 16th  ammendment also ! No man is infallible !   People tend to follow after "charismatic" leaders and the ways of Democracy ( NOT the same result as a Republic ) in error (  by constant persuasion I might add )  rather than the "principles of Republic" ,  this IS why Our Founders established a REPUBLIC based on "rule of law" to protect the very "sovereignty" and state of  the "Individual sovereign" ! My contention against the last two sentences in your comment re: Justice Scalia is that , without the proper understanding of "sovereignty" in it's multiplicities , misunderstanding would give rise / occasion to usurpations/ violations of "sovereignty" in the various forms we are seeing today !  The Fedral Government acts as if  IT were SUPREME and SOVEREIGN relative to the States , by not referring back to the States in ALL matters ,  whether  of "national" concern or not ( the "Federal" government was "created" by the States for the purpose of "serving" the States , in their obligation to serve the "Sovereign Individual" Citizens primarily , and it's own "sovereignty" secondarily  ,  by violating the "sovereignty' of the States in matters such as immigration , education , energy etc., when there is NO "specifically" granted power to exercize  any authority in these regards !  Your statement that the States are NOT "sovereign" smacks of "Monarchism" and  is implicative that all issues of national interest are to be decided by ONLY Congress, or the Federal Government  ! This is dangerous to our "Individual" soverignty since we rely on the States to "push back" against any abusive / tyrannical attempts made by the Congress / Federal Government . This is why the States are , and ALWAYS have been , accepted / made as "Sovereign" relative to one another , the Federal government / Congress , and Foreign States / Nations / Countries .

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @ThePainefulTruth Found it! (copy/paste below from Google). "[PDF] Chisholm v. Georgia - The Scholarly Commons - Georgetown ...scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?...fac...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat by RE Barnett - 2007 - Cited by 22 - Related articles Chisholm v. Georgia and Popular Sovereignty*. Inaugural Address as Carmack Waterhouse Professor of Legal Theory. Georgetown University Law Center,"

Link is: http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=fac_lectures

 

 I wish these forums had an "edit" function"

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @ThePainefulTruth Thank you. I'll evaluate it. I hadn't even been aware of this issue until quite recently (with regard to the justice's remarks) when I found an article by a respected law professor concerning Chisholm v. Georgia. I'll try to find the link to the PDF again...

...crap. This might be a while. I can't even find the file on my drive yet and I'm sure I downloaded it. :(

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase  @garvan Wow !  Just ... Just ... Wow ! YOU Truly ARE  a BASKETCASE when it comes to understanding what is Law and the Correct understanding of Sovereignty in THIS Country !  Are you even a Citizen ? YOU are so ABSOLUTELY Clueless ! Nothing You have Stated is Correct ! It Absolutely Defies All that the Declaration , Consitution , Bill of Rights and all the other Founding / Liberty documents Proclaim !  Are you Communist or Socialist or Just flat out Stupid ! ,alas I repeat myself .

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @ThePainefulTruth My assertion that you were a troll was bit premature. While it is a poor excuse for it it was very late after a long day. You are deserving of apology with regards to that.

 

Your writing style has improved dramatically. 

 

But... "The burden of proof lies with the accuser". You can't assume that the other party should accept your authority in any debate or discussion. When you declare the other party's statements are in error it is your responsibility to demonstrate their fallacy. When you do so, your assertion is a criticism - you give the other person or observers a basis to measure or text your assertions (a critique) - and you demonstrate personal accountability. To do otherwise is to simply accuse. 

 

Now for another point. I'm a natural-born U.S. citizen. I took my oath under Article VI, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution to support it. Additionally,  the specific variation of that oath was the Executive version as defined under Article II of the Constitution, and I did so in the process of becoming a sworn Federal officer as defined under Section 2 of that  same article. I also pledged to sacrifice my life and personal freedom in the process to support my  duties under that oath. As part of that process I knew it was my responsibility to work to understand the nature of what I swore to defend in order to recognize the scope of my duties and I have been doing so in excess of 30 years. I have also worked professorially as a compliance and certification specialist in the area of U.S. and international law. I have been subject to advanced testing and evaluation as far as my intellectual and verbal capacities as well as being subject to personality inventory and assessment - I have not been found wanting. To reveal further detail would risk the appearance of arrogance. It is sufficient to assert that to effectively discredit me usually requires substantial proof and argument and not grave, speculative,  insults and attacks on my heritage, education, political and social beliefs, or character. 

 

 

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase  All incorrect assertions will not go uncorrected by me unless I believe one is hopelessly unable to understand . I believe you are biased  by your own arrogance in that you cannot admit you have  revealed your prejudice to the use of the phrase "Man up" by your subjective / careless interpretation of my meaning along with your hubristic and petty discourse on the gender interpretation of the phrase , which  you give inferrence it is to be  understood in a socially prejudiced  way  , yet it is adequately understood to mean "to be responsible" in the "traditional" sense  and can be credibly supported by most dictionaries ( it is  defined   to mean  "a male human being endowed with qualities such as courage , strength , and fortitude , considered characteristic of manhood " ) along with  the many literary works that employ this usage of the  phrase  by which usage even you have come to understand as such proven by the fact that you have explained to also  mean ,  as you also put it , "to be more adult" , and " to be more responsible " .  So by your own admission you've revealed a bias / prejudice of you own  as to the interpretation of my employment of the phrase , while disregarding the context  in  which it was employed . Sorry , but you,ve been discredited again and again  .  Keep on Trolling  !

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @ThePainefulTruth  @garvan Again the ad hominems. The current evidence suggests an internet troll. The general advice on the internet is to "Don't feed the trolls. They become starved and go away". That dictum will be applied here.

gypsynovus
gypsynovus like.author.displayName 1 Like

Here's the deal.  Good article, but is falls on deaf ears, because what you are up against in neopolitics is not argument principled on the constitution or a misunderstanding of it, but  but legislative sedition principled debauchery what neo pledge in perpetuity is rewarded with unchecked access to drugs, money and sex, thank you UK.  Neo are grifters.  You have to rout them to correct this.  People are chasing their tails trying to frame bridge to the constitution.  It won't work.  You can't beat a liar, and worst yet, you can't beat a liar that kidnaps, tortures and rapes children.  You are fooling yourselves thinking you are going to spawn a generation of conscience in two centuries of repatriation that's so embedded in our culture people will fight you to preserve it.  While it's true they don't have a clue about the destruction this poses to our life in the US, part of the test here is can they discriminate well between a lifestyle  principled on reason v one of debauchery. Right now they don't care.  In this regard, people are indeed stupid, and  thus predisposed to failure in these circumstances, because they chose not to think.  They are booked with endless eating, parties and reproduction.  THIS is what's important to the US at this time, and until this changes there will be no meaningful changes in government with the exception that we will be repatriated on the UK's agenda 21.  Deal of the millennia, eh?

coastx
coastx

 @gypsynovus For those who have been asking questions about my comment, the idea is the opportunity to develop character and honor was given to us by the founders via their concept of ideal government.  The alternative and argument against this is progressivism.  What people do not understand is the progressive movement is a UK inspired repatriation project wholly grounded in palingenesis ultranationalism with the added feature of corporatism as it's economic power and magnifying occult rendition for both shock and awe and BDSM/pedophilia entertainment.  That's it!  People want to argue with this.  Go ahead.  I recognized this issue 40 years ago.  People were as stubborn then as they are now.  They want to assert their "ideas", but they will not focus on the problem, and the reason for this is the Zion link to progressive politics.  Progressives promises you the moon.  Zionists are looking for salvation.  It's a win/win relationship up front and win/lose after the election, because progressives always come up short, Zionists in the wings complaining they've been ripped off by a grifter.  Think progressive v constitutionalist and you will begin to understand what you are dealing with.  Progressives are a party of debauchery.  You know this, because you complain about it every time you elect one.  Constitutionalists don't appeal to you, because they're old, lack slick willy demeanor or you generally can not identify with them, because they have character, and  this offends your sensibilities principled on progressivism.  You're asleep!  Go argue with yourself in front of the mirror.  In reality, if you want to break it down even further, progressives are the accumulation of the world's narcissists, and every one of them is clinically neurotic.

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @gypsynovus Stop wasting our time with YOUR insight of what IS and HAS BEEN old news/knowledge . Good Grief ! ... Where Have YOU Been ?

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @ThePainefulTruth  @gypsynovus How about learning proper usage of capitalization, grammar, and spelling? The fact that you used a arrogant phrase like "Man up" is huge red flag in its own right.

coastx
coastx

 When I was younger, my mother always reminded me not to swallow my chewing gum for the reason you exemplify in your comment.  It gets your brain all tangled up and gooey.      

coastx
coastx

   @TPT  For those who have been asking questions about my comment, the idea is the opportunity to develop character and honor was given to us by the founders via their concept of ideal government.  The alternative and argument against this is progressivism.  What people do not understand is the progressive movement is a UK inspired repatriation project wholly grounded in palingenesis ultranationalism with the added feature of corporatism as it's economic power and magnifying occult rendition for both shock and awe and BDSM/pedophilia entertainment.  That's it!  People want to argue with this.  Go ahead.  I recognized this issue 40 years ago.  People were as stubborn then as they are now.  They want to assert their "ideas", but they will not focus on the problem, and the reason for this is the Zion link to progressive politics.  Progressives promises you the moon.  Zionists are looking for salvation.  It's a win/win relationship up front and win/lose after the election, because progressives always come up short, Zionists in the wings complaining they've been ripped off by a grifter.  Think progressive v constitutionalist and you will begin to understand what you are dealing with.  Progressives are a party of debauchery.  You know this, because you complain about it every time you elect one.  Constitutionalists don't appeal to you, because they're old, lack slick willy demeanor or you generally can not identify with them, because they have character, and  this offends your sensibilities principled on progressivism.  You're asleep!  Go argue with yourself in front of the mirror.  In reality, if you want to break it down even further, progressives are the accumulation of the world's narcissists, and every one of them is clinically neurotic.    

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase  The English grammer lesson is much appreciated and informative . Perhaps I've gone a bit too far with my idea of a compromise between using italics v. quotation marks v. all capital letters  in my effort to "punch up" certain words for expediency sake ( you are the second person to give the same critique ) , yet I still doubt that "most" readers on this forum would really be concerned or able to recognize the grammatical abuses employed . Your civility IS appreciated . I accept it IS the best avenue to proceed with from this point on .Thanks

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase   To this charge I must reply that you are incorrect in your assessment as to what is I am appealing to . My appeal is not  to anything having to do with me or my "self-serving" interests, prejudices , or emotions ,  but to what is to "understood " and "accepted' as the responsibility of all Citizens in this country as a reasonable expectation of other Citizens  . This is NOT ad hominem . Finally in this particular case the 'character' of the person , according to his commentary , IS the subject to be attacked . This is NOT an aside attempt to discredit , it IS the issue to be rebuked !  P.S. , it is 'bona fides" not "bone fides" . Next !

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase  Since you were unable to go back and see the errors in you own comments let me help you and therby gain some credibility at the same time . First , in your comments regarding what i implied by the phrase to "man up" any reasonable person would take that to for  the  neutral gender meaning in sense you have described considering the context of it's emplyment . Second , my use of that phrase is not based on "My" interpretation but that of many of the greatest and most respected leaders of this constitutional republic because it is incumbent upon us all to do so in discharging our responsibilities as a "virtuous Citizen" in acting against all powers of oppression and / or  tyranny working against our sovereignty and God given rights . Third , you ommitted the word "are" which should be in the sixth word position of the second sentence . Fourth , you also ommitted the word "thing' after the first use of the word "certain" in the latter part of the second sentence . Fifth, referring to unnecessary subjects and objects such as one's biology which is clearly not the subject nor even by a reasonable stretch of the imagination but rather created for the sake of adding addition foder to rebut  , would tend to be inferred by many to be the hubris of which you accused me to have . Sixth , you incorrectly claim my statement to be "arrogant' because my statement does'nt reflect a sentiment of superiority over another  , just a requirement to act responsibly to the moment at hand . Seventh ,  the use of the phrase 'to be more adult" as used by you for an example is just as much a subjective phrase to be interpreted as the phrse "Man up" which you claim is inappropriately employed by me . Eighth , you ommitted  the second half of the word "sometimes" in the last sentence of you comment . Whew !  Enough already , I think it is now obvious we are wasting our time on such matters that are truly irrelevant to the real subject at hand unless used as an example in rebuttal of anothers hypocracy , and even then probably not worth the trouble , agreed !  

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase I have read you posted reply , I do appreciate it and accept most of what you have explained and the civil tone you have employed in sharing . I do take exception to the accusation of Hubris since there is / was no intention or example of  excessive pride or arrogance , just impassioned comments and fervent belief in the urgency to inform people of the correct understanding . I also comment  to refute anyone who is misinformed or acts to misinform the citizenry , in defense of those derided by emplying  similar derision to the attacker so they would feel the same sting as their target , and because of my beleif in  the necessity to act on the principles and laws of this country before we reach the point of no return or civil war in rebellion / defense of our rights ! I think you're sincere enough for me to give the benefit of any doubt that you are now making reconciliation to rectify an ugly situation which I also wish to rectify although I will add you could have made yourself understood without the antagonistic approach , agreed ?

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @ThePainefulTruth  @jazznut50  @gypsynovus 

The rebuttal is quite ad hominem. Rather than attacking the substance of the argument it attempts to attack the character of the person.  While the temptation to reveal bone fides is tempting under the circumstances it would be counterproductive. 

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @ThePainefulTruth  @gypsynovus 

See previous response about usage of language and accepted patterns for creating emphasis. There are several claims of error in the previous reply but no effort to support such. This represents a lack of accountability as there is no basis of measure to test the truthfulness of the assertions. By definition such are accusatory; not critical responses to anything that they refer to. It is recommended that the poster apply the linguistic principles explained in "Strunk& White's Elements of Style". This book is found in paperback in most major bookstores; usually under $5.00 USD. 

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @ThePainefulTruth The purpose of language is to communicate; not confuse. There are well established linguistic devices that exist to "punch up" the meaning of a sentence or word. Some of these are specific to the typography of the internet. While creating alternative techniques to improve that emphasis is neither unheard of or improper, there must be a framework for a reader of at least average intelligence to determine the intent of such usage from the context; to do otherwise is simply hubris.

 An example from your posting that I'm replying to is the reference to the "Average reader". Words capitalized on the initial letter in the English language (whichever variant) indicate a proper noun. If the letters are all capitalized, they replace the use of italics (which are used for emphasis).  In this instance, if the word "average" was to be emphasized then the course of action would have been to use all capitals for that word. That creates an immediate signal of "this is important". To misuse that tends to signal to the reader that the person is either uneducated or in a confused mental state. That may not be the intent, but that is the effect. They will tend to treat such artifice as random noise or disregard the poster entirely.  Most readers will excuse the occasional typographic error and read past them, but to continue to do so simply creates frustration within the target audience.

  Remove the excess capitalization and avoid the pattern of address when addressing people that causes them to feel that they are being "talked down to".  Removing first and second person references and avoid ad hominems. It is no accident that this entire reply (other that the automatic identification created by the reply function of this forum) up until this point avoids the usage of "I", "you", "me", "your", your name or handle, or my own. The effect is a more respectful tone that focuses on behavior and not person. 

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase  How Small minded and Petty of YOU ! Try rereading the comments without the Petty shades on ! Now think on the subject of the discussion and Think before you Blurt !

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase  @jazznut50  @gypsynovus  For someone who thinks oneself to be educated enough to deride others for their written communication skills YOU certainly do Act the Fool by Complaining about that which YOU don't understand ! In light of the CONTEXT of the discussion at hand the Correct interpretation of the Expression "Man Up" is readily discernible  as a reference to Acting  as a Responsible "Virtuous" Citizen (as Thomas Jefferson put it ) by Doing that which IS necessary to Thwart the Oppressive / Tyrannical Power instead of bemoaning what is self perceived as Futile ! Anyone can Bitch ! How about coming up with Solutions and ACTING  on them !  Owe up to YOUR share of the Responsibility to Protect , Preserve , and Defend the Constitution and what it Stands for ! Pettiness is for Babies !

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @thebasketcase  @gypsynovus Perhaps You should reconsider Your own explanation as stated in follow up below because it is NOT even close to addressing the point of the expression and certainly NOT the one you attempt to give it !  The True Scotsman cite is NOT relevant ( you've confused your take and application to the expression "Man up" ) since the expression IS employed in the context of what is the thing to do in this Crisis situation as discussed by everyone here ! Without another specific referrence to give context otherwise , how is it YOU are so Confused ? The expression is a referrence to an Man's Social responsibilty as a "Virtuous Citizen "  (in the words of Thomas Jefferson and others) to Act in Accord with the Accepted / Agreed to Responsiblity of Upholding the Constitution and any other Virtuous Standard by which this Country is Founded on , and as expressed by  Abraham Lincoln's statement that when a Man Does'nt Act when it is Evident / Obvious / Clear that he should  , This is what Makes Cowards of Men !  Furthermore the use of Extra Capitalization is merely for expression sake to make words POP more to the Average reader since the Average reader Does'nt have the Critical Analysis skills developed beyond that of what was supposed to be Eighth grade Level ( 100 yrs ago ) due to our Poor / Lousy Public Educational system today (  approx. 50% pass / graduate with sufficient English / Reading skills ...  Obviously this is NOT an Absolute  OKAY ? ) because it has been Hijacked and Engineered to be insufficient ! Now as to any issues of Spelling ... well that is simply a result of typing rapidly and perhaps misspelling some words or a keyboard misstrike or an ommission of words due to lack of  thought continuity or a careless trifling mistake ... so what ?  See your own Hypocrisy in you other comments ( 4ht down ) since I can  easily see 5 mistakes such as  word  ommissions , misinterpretation , incorrect analogy , misunderstanding of the word "Arrogance"  and  the whole Gender usage garbage / silliness . Good Grief ! Do YOU have  Anything Better that you can Add / Talk about ? !

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

You are The Basketcase here , it appears you Don't have enough Creative intelligence to understand what it is I'm doing with my usage of Capital letters and grammatical expression outside your little box of regimented piped in info . The usage I employ is to give the written word some emphasis , much as one would give emphasis in the spoken word , by emphasizing certain words and / or syllables . Since the Average reader can't read above the 8th grade level ( with a developed ability for serious Critical Analysis ) I've resorted to other means to punch up the words , their Ideas behind them , and finally to give certain words their Preferred emphasis in consideration of their proper contextual meaning / employment . Also , sometimes in the course of rapidly typing in reply to others comments words may be ommitted , misspelled , mistyped , misplaced , and/or misprinted by the keyboard when typing too fast !  I presume you will understand this as it does appear you do have the sense and critical thinking to reason well enough to even address such things .   That said , let us NOT get stuck in the Chasm / Void caused by "Political Correctness" / "Prudeness" that would cause one to NOT focus on the "Real" intent of Language / Expression no matter how well put unless employed in response to someone else's hypocritical comments to show their own errors / flaws , as Necessary !  Savvy ?

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @jazznut50  @ThePainefulTruth  @gypsynovus 

You might consider what you are implying with that phrase. When you use it you stating "I have decided a man must act, speak, and value a certain in a certain way. Ignoring your actual biology and focusing on your conduct I'm declaring you are not being a man - start acting the way I have decided you should act or you are not a man". Do you catch the arrogance? If you mean to say to a person to be more assertive and take personal responsibility for their actions and beliefs - in short, be more adult - then that is what should be said. Gender has nothing to do with it.  I do understand your disdain for politically correct speech - some it gets over the top and evasive with innuendo - I don't defy it. I just use it for humorous intent :)

 

Also, just in case you didn't get my reference to that fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

jazznut50
jazznut50

 @thebasketcase  @ThePainefulTruth  @gypsynovus 

 

Thank you also.   It is appreciated.  And the kind of "schooling" I am talking about is going on everywhere--if not already implemented, it will be soon--there may actually be some teachers and professors out there who can actually get away with actually educating their students, but those are becoming fewer and farther between.

 

The educational system, like the economy, is tanking and the only thing that can save us is the states' ability to begin nullifying federal laws, written into the Constitution in order to avoid just what we are experiencing in this time period--a total takeover by the federal government, of every aspect of our lives. 

 

I happen to like the term "man up" so if someone else was using it in another context, I didn’t "get" that particular context.   I am particularly sick of the forced "politically-correct" language and defy it every chance I get.

thebasketcase
thebasketcase

 @jazznut50  @ThePainefulTruth  @gypsynovus Thank you for that grammatical correction; it's greatly appreciated.

 

I know what you mean about the "new man".  But that particular expression is just a particularly insulting form of the "True Scotsman" argument. It's just an ad hominem attack. The fact you were able to catch my mistake leads me to believe you are educated enough to recognize the logical fallacies I just named. 

jazznut50
jazznut50 like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @thebasketcase  @ThePainefulTruth  @gypsynovus 

 

Try taking your own advice.  It's "an" arrogant--not "a" arrogant.

 

And what I would like to see is more men "man up".  Quite frankly, I am getting very tired of the "new man"--mealy-mouthed, weak and effeminate.    It's quite sickening really. 

ThePainefulTruth
ThePainefulTruth

 @gypsynovus Should I put my head between my legs ... now? ...now?... if NOT now , when ? ... Now?  CHEEZUS !  ATLEAST Be MAN enough to Make an Effort to inform the People of the Right / Correct Knowledge so as to Stand in Unison and Superior numbers  against our Oppressors !  Inform those that are in the Military , Law Enforcement , Public service so they will realize the Proper Equation and the numbers of those in support of our defense against ANY Tyrannical Usurper ! Persuasion will influence the Many to decision and Action more than YOU know ! MAN UP for Cripes Sake !

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  1. [...] slave laws in the 1850s. And for the most part, he resistsRead the rest of this article at: http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2012/09/15/jefferson-and-madison-vs-staff-writer/ Click "Home" to find this article in English. Clic "Inicio" para encontrar este artículo en [...]

  2. [...] 10th Amendment Center has put out an excellent piece on [...]

  3. [...] article on the doctrine of nullification. We need to prod our legislators in Columbia to resist any federal interference in the realm of [...]

  4. [...] Jefferson and Madison vs “Staff Writer” (tenthamendmentcenter.com) [...]

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  6. [...] Jefferson called this “Nullification,” and James Madison called it “Interposition.” Madison supported these views in his “Report of 1800.” Later, he flip-flopped.  For a while, he was even saying [...]

  7. [...] Jefferson called this “Nullification,” and James Madison called it “Interposition.” Madison supported these views in his “Report of 1800.” Later, he flip-flopped. For a while, he was even saying [...]