Garbage in, Garbage Out

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There is an old saying in the world of computers – garbage in, garbage out.

Consider this simple equation.

(2+2)(7) +2 = 30.

Now imagine somebody comes along and asserts I have the answer wrong.

“The correct answer is 37,” my mathematical nemesis insists.

“How do you figure?”

“Well, it’s simple,” he replies. “Five times seven equals 35. Then you add two and come up with 37”

Of course, I quickly counter that to find the proper answer you must multiply four times seven. But he continues to assert that I am incorrect, insisting the answer comes out to 37, because to properly work the problem you first add two plus two, which equals five. Then you multiply five times seven to get 35 then add two to come up with the final sum of 37.

You see the problem here. Although he follows the proper mathematical steps to find the correct answer, he bases his math on a false premise – that 2+2= 5.  As long as my friend insists 2+2=5, he can never come up with the proper answer. His mathematical reasoning is sound, but only from the point of his fundamental error.

Garbage in, garbage out.

I see this same logical fallacy when I debate people on the legitimacy of nullification. Take this comment on an article on the Wisconsin Supreme Court nullifying the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850.

“The (U.S. Supreme) Court held that under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution, federal law controls over state law, and the Constitution gives the Supreme Court final authority to make constitutional decisions. The Court held that the Framers never intended to allow each state to interpret the Constitution for itself. Rather, the Constitution set up the Supreme Court to ‘finally and conclusively’ interpret the Constitution. “

Notice the false premise upon which our commenter’s reasoning rests – the Supreme Court has the power to “finally and conclusively” determine the constitutionality of a federal act. Therefore, the states have no power to nullify.

And his basis for this assertion?

Why the Supreme Court says so!

Garbage in, garbage out.

In fact, nowhere does the Constitution declare the Supreme Court the sole and final arbiter of the constitutionality of an act. The Supreme Court came up with that notion itself.  By that reasoning, I can declare myself emperor, and so it shall be!

In fact, the whole idea fails the logic test. The Supreme Court has the final say because the Supreme Court says so? Really? That’s your compelling argument?

Thomas Jefferson blew this illogical notion out of the water in the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798.

The several States composing, the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that, by a compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States, and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes — delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving, each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: that to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral part, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party: that the government created by this compact was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself; since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers; but that, as in all other cases of compact among powers having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress.

Madison expands on this in his Report of 1800.

The Constitution of the United States was formed by the sanction of the states, given by each in its sovereign capacity. It adds to the stability and dignity, as well as to the authority of the Constitution, that it rests on this legitimate and solid foundation. The states, then, being the parties to the constitutional compact, and in their sovereign capacity, it follows of necessity, that there can be no tribunal above their authority, to decide in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated; and, consequently, that, as the. parties to it, they must themselves decide, in the last resort, such questions as may be of sufficient magnitude to require their interposition.

In other words, if the people created the federal government through their states, and insisted that their state governments and the people themselves retained all powers not delegated, it makes no sense allow the federal government to determine the scope and extent of those powers. It’s like appointing my mom the final judge in a dispute between you and I. My mom is a sweet person. Pretty honest and forthright too.  But would you agree to that scenario?

I think not.

The commenter’s “logic” turns the servant into the master.

And yet this person, and others like him, will continue to call nullification invalid. They will continue to insist that the Supreme Court stands as the sole and final constitutional judge. And they will continue to cite the Supreme Court as the basis for their assertion.

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It all reminds me of the tactic often used by my mother when I questioned her authority as a teenager.

“Because I said so!”

Well, yeah, OK. That worked even when she wasn’t right, because mom had the power to ground me and take away my car keys.  But that fact didn’t make her reasoning sound. And saying the Supreme Court possesses all of the power because the Supreme Court says it possesses all of the power isn’t any more logical than my mom screaming, “Because I said so.”

The fact remains; 2+2 does not equal five, and if you continue to insist it does, you will never come up with the right answer.

Garbage in, garbage out.

About Mike Maharrey

Michael Maharrey [send him email] is the Communications Director for the Tenth Amendment Center. He proudly resides in the original home of the Principles of '98 - Kentucky. See his blog archive here and his article archive here. He also maintains the blog, Tenther Gleanings.

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10 comments
Chaplain Michael
Chaplain Michael like.author.displayName 1 Like

DarylLloydDavis is a fine example of "garbage in garbage out". What an asinine statement; "Preserve the Union but be rid of the original Constitution." What in hell does this DarylLloydDavis character think the Constitution would be replaced with? Who would draft the new laws to preserve the Union? We need to preserve the Union and the Constitution by getting rid of the socialists and communists within our political system. We need to preserve the Union and the Constitution by getting the federal government off the backs of  We the People and force the federal federal back to following the Constitution, especially the 10th. amendment.  Any person who would make such an asinine statement; "Preserve the Union but be rid of the original Constitution is obviously an enemy of the Constitution and should be disregarded as such but certainly not underestimated. 

Mike Maharrey
Mike Maharrey moderator

 @Chaplain Michael DarylLloydDavis proposes a new constitution based on direct democracy. He clearly disagrees with our objectives here at the Tenth Amendment Center, but he uses our website in an attempt to drive traffic to his.

West Texan
West Texan

 @MikeMaharrey-TenthAmendment A scary thought indeed, this "direct democracy.". A lie easily used to grab public support for the 17th amendment, which effectively stripped state administrators and representatives of their national voice. I've said before that if the 17th was meant to curb political corruption, it failed miserably. The so called "direct democracies" are nothing more than mob rule under the dictates of charasmatic leadership, who's ethics  can go in either direction. There are never any guarantees as history will attest. This is why a representative republic, guided by constitutional limits within a framework of separated powers, is so crucial. 

DarylLloydDavis
DarylLloydDavis

 @MikeMaharrey-TenthAmendment  Actually, Mike, I'm genuinely interested in many of the stories posted here; and I usually post either an opposing opinion, or a divergent one, because this is my sincere point of view. That I don't march lock-step with the Tenth's objectives does not mean we aren't headed in the same direction. I assumed that discourse was allowed and welcomed here.

 

That I also offer a link to my own website, rather than attempting to flesh out my arguments here, may indeed benefit me; but it also represents a courtesy to you, and to those of your readers who might be curious to know more about the alternatives for political decentralization. 

 

It's disappointing that you would sooner address an hysterical outburst from the pious chaplain there, than intelligently refute my arguments against and criticisms of your points of view.

Mike Maharrey
Mike Maharrey moderator

 @DarylLloydDavis You are welcome to post here. Nobody is stopping you. Your comments are not being censored. I have perused your website. You desire to do away with the original Constitution and replace it with a system based on direct democracy. Our goal at TAC is to restore the the original Constitution. Those two goals are diametrically opposed. So while we may share some underlying philosophy, we are not heading in the same direction. Quite frankly, I simply don't have time to refute your arguments.

Chaplain Michael
Chaplain Michael

 @DarylLloydDavis  @MikeMaharrey-TenthAmendment 

Mr. DarylLloydDavis you assume I am acting with pious, which I don't mind because I am actually pious, but I know you meant it more as a dig than a compliment. In essence, I am acting out of a pious love for the original Constitution our forefathers gave their lives to give to us. Yeah, you included. I would piously defend your right to have an opinion regardless of how asinine it was.

 

I only  "assume" you are an enemy of the Constitution because of your sincere point of view, or your pious point of view, in wanting to be rid of the original Constitution and replace it with a Democracy. Liberty was given to, We The People, by the Constitution not a socialist style democracy, where the mob eventually rules. 

 

You mention that It's disappointing that Mike Maharrey would sooner address an hysterical outburst from the pious chaplain, that would be me, than intelligently refute your arguments against any criticisms of your point of view. First of all, from my pious point of view, there is no intelligent way to refute your arguments, I piously stand by, garbage in garbage out. Pious garbage is still garbage and cannot be argued with. Maybe you should try an argument like, we should fix the Constitution so that communists can never again get this close to destroying our Republic.

 

If you want to talk about a real hysterical outburst lets hear from those who gave their blood protecting our original Constitution, oh wait, they're dead, so I will hysterically outburst for them and piously label your point of view as pure garbage that is not good for America. 

 

I think you're a blog-plant and a trouble maker trying to lure pious people such as myself or patriots like Mike Maharrey into argumentative nonsense in order to control the dialect, Saul A. would be proud of you. You must have went to a socialist style American in name only college, I cannot imagine you learned that opinionated garbage on your own?  

 

Darn, I guess it worked, you're at least good and getting the hair to rise on my neck, but your opinion stills smells like "garbage in garbage out" and that cannot be refuted by the nose of any patriotic American.

Madisonian
Madisonian

Yes, it is simply assumed, not only by liberals but also by too many conservatives, that the Supreme Court has the last word on any issue.  In other words, it is assumed to be a superlegislature.  And if the supremacy clause is interpreted to mean the powers of the Federal government have indefinite extent (instead of being restricted to the enumerated powers that were delegated by the states), this means the Supreme Court is, to all intents and purposes, the sovereign power

DarylLloydDavis
DarylLloydDavis

Terrific Jefferson quote, quite definitive. It seems likely though that the rise of modern states with their advanced armed forces has made the original intent of the Framers largely irrelevant. To allow states to decide for themselves whether or not this or that law meets their constitutional muster--setting aside the question of who would make that call--is tantamount to dissolving the Union. And in a relatively open country with so many private assets this would never be allowed to happen. 

 

Frankly, I find it absurd to continue, centuries after their deaths, to try divining the Founders' original, collective aim. Plenty of compromises were forced before ratification; and clearly more amendments were added afterward. This was not, and is still not, a complete document. Resorting to it as though it were, we lay in the laps of history scholars and Supreme Court Justices the power to subjectively determine the direction of our polity.

 

I'd be surprised if Jefferson would not cringe to discover that the patchwork document he and is contemporaries penned has since endured these many generations--without any intervening, ambitious generation capitalizing upon its own present day to update and improve a document so flawed (slavery, for example) even for its own day. 

 

Be more bold and yet more wise. Preserve the Union but be rid of the original Constitution: 

 

http://whatdirectdemocracymightbe.wordpress.com/

West Texan
West Texan

 @DarylLloydDavis As a disciple of anti-federalist thought during the constitution's ratification debates, I have to agree the initial document was flawed from the start. Immediately enter the U.S. Bill of Rights to amend the constitution's principle shortcomings. The first ten amendments provided the necessary keystone to the constitution's original design and intent, which all constitutional decision making (be this by presidents, legislators or justices) must rest to preserve our union. Sadly, it's been and continues to be undermined by a social progressive cancer that got its firm foothold back in 1913. Yes, our union won't last much longer given the continued assault by out-of-control federal power grabbers.      

DarylLloydDavis
DarylLloydDavis

 @West Texan Agreed. It amazes me that so many Americans today, even as our nation is clearly in decline and verging upon bankruptcy, fault the other political party and ignore the system itself and the constitution that created it. It was a good effort on the part of the Framers, to be sure. But to insist that we mere mortals today could never match their "genius"--and ought not hazard the notion--is the sad victory of scared patriotism over sound common sense.

 

http://whatdirectdemocracymightbe.wordpress.com/in-brief/

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