Tenth Amendment Showdown

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by John Bowman, LewRockwell.com

One of the very few things that virtually everyone in America will agree on is a substantial degree of dissatisfaction with the state of political affairs. In particular, I think everyone understands that we, as a nation, somehow got on the wrong track, even without an understanding of why that is, or, worse, if one believes or repeats the perceived reasons from major political party mouthpieces. On the other hand, many of us earnestly believe the primary reason for this dissatisfaction is that government no longer adheres to the binding rules set forth in the Constitution. And, let’s face it, everyone, even illiterates, knows that’s true. At the same time, there is a set of well-intentioned people who have utter faith in the Constitution, yet have no idea why it is that federal government can so easily ignore it. God bless public education, because I was erroneously taught in grade school that an intricate set of “checks and balances” was established by our Founders so that the courts would protect our liberties from one or both the Congress or the President. In fact, the original and only conceivable “checks” on federal government are/were the States, which makes the Tenth Amendment ground zero for anyone who desires to fix modern problems of leviathan government. But as a result of a bloody and vicious military coup fought 150 years ago on American soil, the Tenth Amendment has been ever since comatose. There’s the answer, really, why the government can so easily ignore the Constitution. Without the Tenth Amendment, or rather the clear allocation of powers it reaffirms, the Constitution can guarantee nothing but it’s own eventual demise.

The very recent revival of the Tenth Amendment on both popular and political landscapes has underscored the ever-present demarcation between liberty and statism. It has also brought to light an interesting demarcation within the group of liberty-minded anti-statists. In my own State of Washington, HJM 4009 has been introduced and has had its first reading. It is very tame when compared to some other State sovereignty bills, essentially merely reminding the federal government that the Tenth Amendment exists and what can be read on its face. I cannot imagine an excuse politicians – notably ones who have sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution – could have to willfully, via active vote, reject this bill that merely reaffirms a particular portion of the Constitution. I could not imagine it, that is, until the Oklahoma fiasco. As most know, the House and Senate of the State of Oklahoma passed a resolution claiming sovereignty only to have it vetoed by governor Henry with scarcely any rational defense for said action other than not wasting precious legislative time (laugh all you want, that’s what he said) or belatedly the far more palatable argument that it might jeopardize federal funds that are dispersed to Oklahoma. After overriding the veto, by a two-thirds majority in the House (and a belief that the Senate will do the same), Republicans soothed constituents that this resolution would not jeopardize federal funds.

My question is this: Do the fools not realize that they are merely recovering a portion of their own property, and that these federal funds could not be given them without having first been taken from them? It really isn’t my question alone, but one penned, virtually verbatim, almost 500 years ago by a revolutionary philosopher in the realm of natural rights (and peaceful resistance) named, Étienne de la Boétie.

To illustrate how timely and relevant was la Boétie’s eloquence, consider the full passage from The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude:

“[Roman] Tyrants would distribute largess, a bushel of wheat, a gallon of wine, and a sesterce: and then everybody would shamelessly cry, “Long live the King!” The fools did not realize that they were merely recovering a portion of their own property, and that their ruler could not have given them what they were receiving without having first taken it from them. A man might one day be presented with a sesterce and gorge himself at the public feast, lauding Tiberius and Nero for handsome liberality, who on the morrow, would be forced to abandon his property to their avarice, his children to their lust, his very blood to the cruelty of these magnificent emperors, without offering any more resistance than a stone or a tree stump. The mob has always behaved in this way – eagerly open to bribes that cannot be honorably accepted, and dissolutely callous to degradation and insult that cannot be honorably endured.”

For myself, I first learned of la Boétie only recently, when I stumbled upon the following quote by him:

“The fundamental political question is why do people obey a government. The answer is that they tend to enslave themselves, to let themselves be governed by tyrants. Freedom from servitude comes not from violent action, but from the refusal to serve. Tyrants fall when the people withdraw their support.”

I was amazed at how advanced one’s philosophical framework must be in order to construct the above statement in the 1550′s, as it encompasses much of the beloved Lockean natural rights tenets. Sure enough, a quick search revealed an essay devoted entirely to la Boétie by none other than Murray Rothbard (full article here). Rothbard concludes that while many commentators of the past have illustrated great faith in central governments,

“It is hard to think of anyone having such unexamined faith in government today. In such an age as ours, thinkers like Étienne de La Boétie have become far more relevant, far more genuinely modern, than they have been for over a century.”

But I can think of a set of actors who will happily propound unexamined faith in government: the government itself, such as elected politicians or appointed bureaucrats. However, given that the present sovereignty movement is still in its infancy, there has not been much response from the leviathan as yet, other than that from Obama’s acceptance speech, uttered before the movement began in earnest, in which the president-elect claimed in classic non-speak of the politician where abstractions, not logic or truth, are all the supporting evidence one needs, and further without any apparent understanding that it was a brazen lie: that we have never been a collection of individuals or a collection of red States and blue States, rather, we are, and always will be the USA. Worse yet, he made these remarks in the context of a question of whether or not the dream of our Founders is still alive, no less. But then again, it really was not a declaration by Obama alone, but the same lies Dishonest Abe directed to a previous generation of Americans and to (posthumously) sovereign South Carolina’s patriot, John C. Calhoun.

It remains to be seen whether the present administration, like Lincoln in his day, will attempt to stamp out the ideas of our Founders by employing force against those who, despite other flaws (real or perceived), still hold these ideas dear. And it’s no great leap to realize that if such were to occur with Obama heading the executive, as with Lincoln, it would be quite consistent with the advice penned by Machiavelli, also about 500 years ago, only a few decades before la Boétie. According to Machiavelli, when subjecting a State that is accustomed to principles of freedom or liberty (even the mere belief of freedom by Lysander Spooner’s “dupes” if not its actual presence), the Prince essentially must destroy that State (or alternatively live among them).

The ultimate reasons behind America’s War between the States can be condensed to a single issue, which is the very one that is resurfacing today: The Tenth Amendment. So, while post-Lincoln era statists might previously have thought they had settled this issue by using the first plank of advice Machiavelli offered – destruction by attack – they have not, it would seem. One can fill the Grand Canyon and then some with verbal acrobats, tortured logic, propaganda, and deception of those who make claims similar to Obama’s acceptance speech, but every bit of it is nonsense. The Tenth Amendment exists, and it actually means what it says. Of course States are sovereign. Of course States can ignore edicts not among the few and enumerated powers of the subservient (not master) federal government; or even, if the People of a State so choose, leave the voluntary union when the benefits of union are found to be outweighed by onerous detriments. That’s what all the States and ‘The People’ thought they were getting when they ratified the Constitution. And any with doubts, need only look to the very first sentence of Jefferson’s Kentucky Resolve, or to Madison’s counterpart Virginia Resolve, which address these very issues when related questions arose for the first time in our nation’s history.

La Boétie clearly believed violence was not necessary to overthrow the tyranny of government. Rather, the people need only, as Rothbard summarizes, stop supplying the government with the instruments of their own oppression.

Wrote la Boétie,

“Poor, wretched, and stupid peoples, nations determined on your own misfortune and blind to your own good! You let yourselves be deprived before your own eyes of the best part of your revenues; your fields are plundered, your homes robbed, your family heirlooms taken away. You live in such a way that you cannot claim a single thing as your own; and it would seem that you consider yourselves lucky to be loaned your property, your families, and your very lives. All this havoc, this misfortune, this ruin, descends upon you not from alien foes, but from the one enemy whom you yourselves render as powerful as he is, for whom you go bravely to war, for whose greatness you do not refuse to offer your own bodies unto death. He who thus domineers over you has only two eyes, only two hands, only one body, no more than is possessed by the least man among the infinite numbers dwelling in your cities; he has indeed nothing more than the power that you confer upon him to destroy you.

“Where has he acquired enough eyes to spy upon you, if you do not provide them yourselves? How can he have so many arms to beat you with, if he does not borrow them from you? The feet that trample down your cities, where does he get them if they are not your own? How does he have any power over you except through you? How would he dare assail you if he had no cooperation from you? What could he do to you if you yourselves did not connive with the thief who plunders you, if you were not accomplices of the murderer who kills you, if you were not traitors to yourselves? You sow your crops in order that he may ravage them, you install and furnish your homes to give him goods to pillage; you rear your daughters that he may gratify his lust; you bring up your children in order that he may confer upon them the greatest privilege he knows – to be led into his battles, to be delivered to butchery, to be made the servants of his greed and the instruments of his vengeance; you yield your bodies unto hard labor in order that he may indulge in his delights and wallow in his filthy pleasures; you weaken yourselves in order to make him the stronger and the mightier to hold you in check. From all these indignities, such as the very beasts of the field would not endure, you can deliver yourselves if you try, not by taking action, but merely by willing to be free.

“Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break into pieces.”

So la Boétie describes what would happen if we simply stop supplying the instruments of our own oppression to the oppressive government. Namely, if we ended the Federal Reserve, ended the IRS, and for good measure repealed the Sixteenth Amendment. Then the great Colossus would tumble and shatter. All already assume none of those things are achievable at the federal level. And therein lies the essence of the demarcation between the otherwise unified anti-statists: some feel it can be achieved peaceably, while others are resigned to or at least expect violence. After all, said, JFK: “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”

But imagine if a single State asserted its Constitutional rights and followed its own charters and mandates to protect its own citizens who empower it from theft and fraud. Imagine if that single State refused to collect oppressive taxes from its own people to ship off to DC, which DC in turn dishonorably doles out as largess to the most supplicant. Imagine if that single State called on its own militia or a temporary posse, comprised of volunteers, to expel any federal tax collector from its borders. Every other State in the union would be forced to follow suit, if not by the power of The People directly, then by rapid and unanimous exodus of individuals and businesses eager to relocate to the nearest “free” State. That is a peaceful solution worthy of la Boétie, and why I strongly support any quest for State sovereignty or Tenth Amendment affirmations as well as ideas like freestateproject.org. The fear then is, will it be met by a Machiavellian response, like was the case in 1860? It won’t if we have an educated, peaceful society, which is a goal all Americans, I think, can agree.

John Bowman [send him mail] lives in Washington State.

Copyright © 2009 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit is given.

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68 comments
Bob
Bob

Although I have not had the time or interest to read all the posts on this site, after scanning the majority of them, it seem that one fundamental point has been overlooked.

The Federal Goverment...at the fundamental level...consists of Representatives and Senators and a President all elected by the people of the various states. I agree with all the arguments invoking the Tenth Amendment. But why do we have an Imperial Federal Government in the first place? It's because the people in the various states have elected Representatives, Senators, and a President most of whom have promised such a government to those people.

In my own State of Colorado, I have consistently written to my two Senators pointing out that they continue to ignore the Constitution of the United States as they "work to support the agenda of President Obama", as proudly reported by one of those Senators.

Until the majority of states stop sending such politicians to Washington, and instead send people dedicated to restoring a Constitutional Federal Government, the real disease will not be cured. It makes no sense to me to send such politicians as my two Senators to Washington, and then invoke the Tenth Amendment and refuse to obey their collective edicts. The people of this nation need to understand the Constitution and insist that the Federal Government uphold it through the actions of the politicians. Until that happens, all the talk about secession and invoking the Tenth Amendment seems like circular logic to me.

In the meantime, such sites at this one are providing an extremely valuable service to our nation. If only it were read by everyone who has a personal computer.

Roy from Texas
Roy from Texas

All the legal thoughts, high sounding arguments and posturing for other men will come to a halt when the ordinary, unwashed, unsophisticated American says, "Aw Crap, this ain't right." At that time there will be a civil war and win, lose or draw, those Americans will make sure everyone knows they've been in a fight. This will happen unless the social engineers realize what they're stepping in and back off.

Michael Boldin
Michael Boldin

Roy, a war and mass death is the last thing that anyone should want. I sure hope you don't. I don't, and this site has no interest in calling for such action or giving even veiled threats of it.

JMB
JMB

The fact that this federal government is setting aside our United States Constitution, for any damn purpose it can fathom.
Is what is illegal.
This federal government itself, is what has become, the national emergency.

Allan A. Campbell
Allan A. Campbell

Re; my 09:46 post its important to clarify its one idea which could empower the State. It isn't an absolute or the only way. The thought behind it was to take everything outside of powers delegated away from Federal govt. Such endeavor would have to be nondestabilizing. Can't give Federal govt. cause and necessity justification to counter a mass exodus out. Thus one must consider those on welfare,SSN,receiving grants,farm subsidies,medicare,veterans pay/benefits,i.e.,all what Federal govt. does Counties and States can replicate. The premise being its a gradual process to undo Federal expanionism. Best form of governance is that which is closest to oneself. Effect would be to subject Federal govt. to more reasonable limitations and constraints. Over time the State adopted programs can be reduced eventually to minimal intrusion and be what best serves the people collectively. Federal govt. now can't justify having all personal income tax money routed to U.S. treasury. Thus States and ultimately the Counties should be recipients of at least 80% of all money presently routed through Federal govt. Again, this is a what could be scenario. If States won't create the remedy,then its incumbent upon all American born to learn the process to exit oneself out from under the 14th Ammendment to be free and clear to effect change outside. Likewise a remedy needs to be created for naturalized citizens as they'd be aliens without rights were they to seperate. It is beyond the scope herein to consider all variables and complexities. Purpose was to get others to consider how people can reserve rights under the 10th Ammendment to do whats never been done. Ask oneself, if only States can reserve rights under the 10th Ammendment,why are people even mentioned?

Allan A. Campbell
Allan A. Campbell

Now thats the way to think re: change. Learning everything necessary to get out of 14th Ammendment is the true path to American born freedom and liberty. Founding Fathers never existed under it. They would not be recognized today as being a U.S. citizen. Exiting the 14th Ammendment is where to access and command original full power of People and update 10th Ammendment by reserving new rights and powers not known. Like voting an all inclusive process for aliens/naturalized to join in crossing the bridge to the 10th Ammendment. It repopulates the Republic reducing Federal power by no one except illegal aliens living within it. Let them be the U.S. citizen accepting the burden of all debts,obligations, and Federal income tax. May dissuaude them from entering. Amen, 14th Ammendment stickage where sun don't shine.

JMB
JMB

Now that’s the kind of letter, only a true patriot of our republican form of government would dare sign.

You can put that national parliament,and that opinion of the 14th, were the sun never shines. Lol

JMB
JMB

Now that’s the kind of letter, only a true patriot of our republican form of government would dare sign.

You can put that national parliament,and that opinion of the 14th, were the sun never shines. Lol

Richard Brodie
Richard Brodie

Dear Federal government, you can take your 14th Ammendment, at least insofar as it pertains to "depriving" ME of any of your supposed "benefits" and, with all due respect, shove it. I don't have to accept your "protection" if I don't want it, anymore than I would have to agree to be covered by a life insurance policy if I should choose not to be. I prefer to be regarded as one of those people within the State of ___________ that you can regard as wearing the mantle of its sovereingty, thank you very much, and good bye.

Allan A. Campbell
Allan A. Campbell

Attn: Richard Brodie. What could empower State's with right to create remedy for "all" people to be declared "part" of the State is : 1.] State creating identical Federal programs all federal citizens presently connected to,then informing all citizens about documentation process out of 14th Ammendment citizen recognition. Whatever class of citizen the Founding Fathers were thats the citizenship State's create a process for all to obtain. It could be a graduating process. Aliens in good standing can become the highest form of citizenship after set qualification period. It must be an all inclusive process to counter Federal govt. claim of protecting anyone not included. Thus will of the people is evidenced by signature consent to depopulate the federal democracy sourced in foreign nation District of Columbia. Welcome to the Republic. Don't see any state truly interested in People's rights or creating such remedy. 2.] People themselves have to create the 10th Ammendment process to reserve rights under the 10th Ammendment[ an uncharted territory]. Whats known is that its inaccessable to any under the 14th Ammendment. Since American born become 14th Ammendment by application documents like birth certificate,SSN,etc.,ad nauseum, only remedy left is to undo everything one did to get into the 14th Ammendment. Sad part is State's only create/circulate 14th Ammendment federal citizen recognition documents. Again State's aren't being forthright in good faith full disclosure. Too many, cheer the State/Federal rights battle. Whatever the outcome, People's rights are being relegated to being a mere footnote in history.

Terry Morris
Terry Morris

It's true that the fourteenth amendment created a U.S. citizenship. It's also true that the central government would look on secession by any State/States as an act of war, and would respond accordingly. Secession does mean war, let's not kid ourselves.

Allan A. Campbell
Allan A. Campbell

That's recipe for Federal Govt. military response. Its akin to State's comandeering the effective connections to Federal taxpayers. Claiming 14th Ammendment citizens as if their a property right of State. Impairs contracts between 14th people and Federal govt. and vests compelling govt. inerest to defend and protect. Secession guarantees it. As to State remedy limitation,re: mantle of sovereignty, what's meant is what State legislatures have absolute sovereignty over is all which exists within the political body of the State. "Residents" are not state citizens,they're extensions of the Federal govt. Only thing which undoes the 14th Ammendment recognition is for people to change themselves in repect to law . If you're a 14th Ammendment person now what would you need to be for the State to liberate you too? Don't see any States educating the populace to assist State endeavor. Such train of thought makes one ponder; Are we being played for chumps caught up in a pseudo-theater by 2 combatants which view us all as a prized possession/intended target?

Richard Brodie
Richard Brodie

"Remedies are limited to those within the State govts., having mantle of sovereignty."

Easy. A state desiring to secede simply declares ALL citizens living within its boundaries to be part of (within) the State govt. - perhaps as members of
a universal legislature, all laws being voted on by everyone of legal age.
California is close to that already, with its ballot Propositions.

Allow me to coin a new word "complifications" - obfuscating complications. I think that's what needs to be avoided here.

Allan A. Campbell
Allan A. Campbell

Seceession is deemed rebellious requiring government force to supress the insurrection. Civil War,as a matter of law,made secession forever unlawful as it violates the reconstructed/restated constitutional compact between Congress Assembled[United States] and the 50 States. Any state attempting to secede will vest lawful authority in the President to declare Executive rule martial law under combined Directives and Executive Orders #12148,12656 and 12919,which sets aside Constitution in times of national emergency. Constitution's Framers provided remedy called seperation,evidenced by first three paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence. Its a withdrawal of one's political consent and delegation of authority. Paramount problem is that there are 2 United States operating in law simultaneously. One is Federal govt. "united States" the other is 50 states in union with foreign nation District of Columbia. Seperation over time became renamed expatriation,a renouncement of U.S. citizenship. What many seek is seperation from the Federal govt " United States" not the 50 states conjoined in union with the foreign nation District of Columbia " United States". Redefinitions of expatriation and renouncing U.S. citizenship like secession are not viable today. Federal govt. has absolute sovereignty over the 14th Ammendment citizenry. A citizenship originally created for newly freed slaves as they became newly recognized aliens without rights. In Thomkins vs. Erie R.R. of 1938,Chief Justice Brandies took silent judicial notice that it took between 1933- 1939 for entire American population to exit their 10th Ammendment standing class of citizenship. Consequence to Great Depression was en masse exodus out of the Republic by joining Federal programs,Trusts,SSN,"purposeful availments",Democracy. Whereafter everyone became purviewed under the 14th Ammendment by way of an application process. Application means oneself is moving the govt. into contractual relationship with oneself. Only govt. documents being circulated are federal citizen recognition documents,regardless of which govt. creates them. Even birth certificate one's mother signed is deemed 14th Ammendment contract of adhesion by its retention after baby reaches age of majority. Its the foundational contract enabling all sucessive govt. authority. It's voluntary sevitude to govt. by consent. Thus to reach seperation one must restore all parties to their original position prior to contract. Undoing one's signature by withdrawing element of substance which is one's authorization renders all past signatures nonbonafide. Signature requires form and substance. Hand written script[element of form]on paper isn't complete signature. Can undo substance for good cause shown and notice. Federal citizenship in its entirety is by application process requiring one's signature/ratification. Congress made the process to seperate cumbersome,creating impediments like "expatriation to avoid the tax", effective connections to commerce,use of gold and silver outside,alienating property off tax roles,need to return documentation and everything else given as well as refusing to accept future benefits,privileges,opportunities,etc. to perfect one's seperation. Clearly political seperation is onerous and time consuming. Fastest seperation right is religous seperation. As all churches have 501c3 tax exempt status they are legal fictions of law with a commercial character regulated in commerce. Govt. asserts sovereignty by Commerce Clause,wherefore all churches exist within the body of govt. There is no seperation of church and govt. Thus seperation can only be done individually. Combining 1st Ammendment right with 10th Ammendment standing on Seperation of Church and State Doctrine becomes taboo subject matter laden with political mines most prosecutors would rather avoid. The legacy and heritage govt. is seperating from American born is the highest form of citizenship recognized by the Founders. Free Inhabitant-Free Citizen. This status at law is sourced in Article 1V of Articles of Confederation incorporarated as " Engagement " in Article V1,Constitution for the United States of America expressed as " people " by 9th and 10th Ammendments enjoying " Republican " form of govt. stated in Article 1V of said Constitution. U.S. citizenship stems from 14th Ammendment and is an inverted master-servant relationship re: American born. Reclaiming 10th Ammendment status/standing which exists submerged under all govt. documents stacked on top,repopulates abandoned Republic. Here is where people can once again demand specific performance by right of sovereignty and innate,non-delegated judicial power to enforce govt. accountability from the outside. Upon all govt. not just Federal. Albeit radical and extreme from a 14th Ammendment perspective, seperation to 10th Ammendment is only lawful remedy created by the Founders acceptable to Congress to exit the jurisdiction of governments - not state secession.

Allan A. Campbell
Allan A. Campbell

Attn: Trouble. State unity doesn't trump Federal authority today. People exist by presumptions of law as being federal citizens wherever they reside. Federal citizens/U.S.citizens are extensions of the Federal govt. Point being, The states are occupied by Federal citizens. States can reserve all the rights they want,they're disregarded because the will of the people is evidenced by 14th Ammendment voluntary servitude to collectively exist within the body of the Federal govt. Secondly, withholding federal funds will compel many states to relent to Federal mandates. State power is effeminate. Original contract between Federal govt. and People is abandoned. Their are no dejure People for govt. to serve. Federal govt. being remnant party to the contract has assumed the abandoned sovereignty and innate judicial power of the People. Its how Supreme Court judicial activism was spawned,likewise Executive administrative agencies,presidential directives,executive orders,etc. Federal govt. views itself as absolute sovereign over both people and States. Its wielding the power of People against the people and States. Sin of omission "expressly" term left out of 10th Ammendment is an example of govt. wielding sovereign perogative to say what is. We're all deluding ourselves into thinking States conjoined in opposition will provide remedy for the people. Remedies are limited to those within the State govts., having mantle of sovereignty. In the eyes of the Federal govt., State govts. are like political islands surrounded by a sea of federal citizens.

Just Wondering
Just Wondering

Just Wondering if,

the New Internet Czar, soon to be appointed by President Obama,
will be closing this Internet Site down?

It would really be a shame!

Closing this Internet SIte down would be Stopped in the Judicial Courts, because it is dealing with the 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the USA, Right?

Damn!

http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/

Thank you for your responses!

Trouble
Trouble

Allan A. Campbell- The approach you suggest is possible but seems to be unessarily complex. The Tenth effectively says that if a power is not delegated to the Federal Government in Article 1 Section 8, then the Federal Government does not have that power. It's quite short and to the point even for the flowery use of the language in the time it was written.

So the short and sweet solution would be to have all the states flat stop giving any authority to Federal Regulations that are not listed in Article 1 Section 8. There is the beginnings of that now in the State Resolutions and the State gun laws currently building.

Allan A. Campbell
Allan A. Campbell

Everyone is viewed thru lens of law and court as being 14th Ammendment person. Meaning; citizen of the Federal Govt.[United States]in whatever state one resides. All govt. created documents circulated requiring application are federal citizen recognition documents. When States reserve 10th Ammendment rights its limited to only those within State govt. Whats outside are all 14th Amm. federal citizen/County/State residents. Founders never existed under 14th,they were a 10th Ammendment standing class of Citizen. It's not enough for States to wield/uphold 10th Amm. power. People having wherewithal to live without govt. programs,SSN,or any "purposeful availment" should consider repopulating the abandoned state Republic by seperating from the federal Democracy. It was govt. that was the seperatist,seperating all American born from their 10th Amm. birth right. State secession is not an option as states are filled with 99.9% federal citizens[14th Ammendment people]. State actions are effeminate to Federal power,rights, and standing. The answer is self evident. We are all supposed to be 10th Amm.People/state/county Citizens. Non-govt. sovereignty is not to be squandered selfishly once its perfected. To restore Republic only requires a minimum of one dejure,bonafide 10th Ammendment Citizen in each county,every state. Then they need to network to reactivate dormant unalienable right to vote. This raises new question of law. Can People reserve rights under the 10th Ammendment by voting new rights into existence? States vote their rights,why can't People? Are'nt People a seperate party to the 10th Ammendment thus having seperate rights,seperate powers outside of State's? Perhaps the answer is for both,People and the State's to reserve rights under the 10th Ammendment. Non-govt. sovereignty backs up the State sovereignty. People could vote to undo what Federal govt. voted in or vote to countervail Executive branch over reaching. States collectively can't limit and constrain the Federal Govt.,but People can. The Federal Govt. is bound by contract to serve the will of the People. When one discovers that Federal Govt. is a foreign nation in respect to the States,it becomes evident all 14th Amm. citizens are foreigners. We're all foreign to the 10th Ammendment position of law and authority the Founding Fathers occupied. 10th Ammendment evidences where people are supposed to be. Thus change can only come from outside the 14th Ammendment scheme.

Trouble
Trouble

Terry- I would be more inclined to think that the opinion that has been offered is simply strong. So far no one has insulted me for my opinion, they have the opinion itself. There is a difference between the two after all.

My overall opinion on secession is fairly simple. I hold that it is a State's (more accurately the People of that State's) Right to walk away peaceably from a corrupted government. This would be considered a Natural Right from the Creator rather than an enumerated Right in the Constitution. To me that is the end of the discussion.

I'm not really defending my position when I say I hope it doesn't happen. In that case I'm expressing a sincere desire to avoid it out of the belief that the States can accomplish more to preserve Liberty as a team rather than a mob. Only proble is that we have a bat boy (The Federal Gov't) that thinks it's the team owner. So that has to be brought to a stop.

I suppose the easiest way to accomplish it would be to have all the States secede, leaving DC completely impotent. Easy in the sense that DC could then do literally nothing, but not so easy in terms of two things.

1. Getting all the States to choose that path.
2. Getting all the States to reconvene to build a new Union.

You can bet the latter will be the real kicker if that process takes place. Unless of course, we manage to get the entire populace bitten by the Liberty bug. In which case you'd see a very tight compact with a heavily restricted central government in a relatively short time.

One associated detail I want to add in regards to the potential of a military response from the Fed if a State secedes.

http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/

Take a good look folks. Our people in the military know their oath and they know who is lying.

Terry Morris
Terry Morris

Trouble, you wrote:

"Despite my defense of secession earlier, I really do not want to see that happen. It would be to everyone’s benefit, liberal, libertarian, or conservative, if things are simply retored to proper balance through the actions of the States we see in process."

It's really just sad that you feel compelled to defend your statements in that way. But it seems that a few people in this thread think that if one can in any way articulate a justification for secession, then he must be a wild-eyed, crazy, fringe nutjob.

I agree though. It would be to everyone's benefit, a peaceful, methodical return to Balanced Constitutional Government; to self-government, re-institution of the federal principle, etc. But as I iterated above, I see that now as something more to be hoped for than to be seriously expected. Though I still cling to hope with you.

You wrote:

"Should a State choose to secede, we’ll see one of two things happen. Either the DC crowd will roll over and accept it, in which case other States will follow in very short order, or the DC crowd will try to use some form of force (economic or military) to rein in the “offending” State."

I personally believe that virtually any scenario you can imagine involving the actuality of secession will involve a (attempted) military putdown. I also think that if one State secedes, others will follow suit invariably. All it will take to set off a chain reaction is a couple of wrong moves from the central government, and here we'll go again (imagine that a single State seceded under the ill-prepared, thoroughly unqualified Hussein Obama). After all, and as you say, Tyrants rarely return acquired power back to its rightful owners willingly, which is to say non-violently.

Terry Morris
Terry Morris

Trouble, you wrote:

"Despite my defense of secession earlier, I really do not want to see that happen. It would be to everyone’s benefit, liberal, libertarian, or conservative, if things are simply retored to proper balance through the actions of the States we see in process."

It's really just sad that you feel compelled to defend your statements in that way. But it seems that a few people in this thread think that if one can in any way articulate a justification for secession, then he must be a wild-eyed, crazy, fringe nutjob.

I agree though. It would be to everyone's benefit, a peaceful, methodical return to Balanced Constitutional Government; to self-government, re-institution of the federal principle, etc. But as I iterated above, I see that now as something more to be hoped for than to be seriously expected. Though I still cling to hope with you.

You wrote:

"Should a State choose to secede, we’ll see one of two things happen. Either the DC crowd will roll over and accept it, in which case other States will follow in very short order, or the DC crowd will try to use some form of force (economic or military) to rein in the “offending” State."

I personally believe that virtually any scenario you can imagine involving the actuality of secession will involve a (attempted) military putdown. I also think that if one State secedes, others will follow suit invariably. All it will take to set off a chain reaction is a couple of wrong moves from the central government, and here we'll go again (imagine that a single State seceded under the ill-prepared, thoroughly unqualified Hussein Obama). After all, and as you say, Tyrants rarely return acquired power back to its rightful owners willingly, which is to say non-violently.

Richard Brodie
Richard Brodie

Secession is a matter of degree. Montana's firearm law is a partial secession - let's say 2%. Refusal to allow IRS collection agents might be considered 10%. For border states, using National Guard troops to stop illegal immigration cold, might be another 10%. I think the incremental goal should be somewhere short of becoming a different country - maybe an 80% secession.

Trouble
Trouble

Roland I must point out that an insurrection is an attempt to overthrow an existing government, not an attempt to leave an unjust one. A secession is attempt to politely walk away without bloodshed. Thus my previous argument stands.

The things you describe are not limited by the Constitution, those are things that are to be handled at the State level, not at the Federal. So technically, you could have one State that say "Brew what you want and enjoy!" and another that enforces a harsh prohibition. As for the marriage aspect, the same rules apply there too.

However, I will agree with you that it is unlikely. As I have said before, I sincerely hope that it does not happen. Still, it pays to be aware of all potential scenarios especially when an upheaval of some sort appears to be in the making. After all, who would have thought a batch of scruffy colonists could drive off the British Empire at its height??

Dick Burns- Incorrect. The States agreed to be bound by the Constitution so long as they remained in the Union. The Bill of Rights was insisted upon by member States as a requirement for ratification of the Constitution. The States too, are bound by the rules within.

Which is yet another reason that Sotomayor is not qualified for the Supreme Court, but that is another discussion.

I'm quite enjoying the debate here, I do believe this might be one of the better threads in quite a while.

Roland Wilson
Roland Wilson

Lincoln and the northern congress during the Civil War used the passage from Article 1, Section 8 of the Constituton which reads, "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, SUPPRESS INSURRECTIONS and repel invasions." and Article 2, Section 1 which reads the President of the United States shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy and militia. So what Lincoln during the Civil War was legal except possibly his suspension of Writ of Habeaus Corpus in Maryland early in the conflict. Now finding justification for sucession in the 10th is interesting theoretically...but would most likely on thin legal ground for the following reason: one could come with any number of "powers" reserved to the states or the people. For example, lets say I wanted to "have some fun" and marry me many wives at once like some extreme Mormon offshoots do in Utah and maybe 1 or 2 other western states. Hell, I could even find justification not only in the 10th, but also in the 1st Amendment. However Polygamy is considered illegal throughout USA and violaters prosecuted wherever possible. Another example is: lets say I wanted to make my own whiskey without paying the required taxes because I don't like Gentleman Jack or Jim Beam and hell I could make better stuff than them anyhow and maybe also make a few dollars also for my trouble. Something like that really happened in 1794 during Whiskey Rebellion and George Washington called out the militia and the rebellion evaporated. The point is people can conjure all kinds of power using the 10th and where does it end.

Debating the fine points of whether sucession is legal or illegal under the Constitution makes for very interesting debate, but has very little practical value. The 1st and most important reason is there is no support throughout the country for sucession throughout the country except for maybe a tiny(much less than 1% of the counrty and thats being very generous)lunatic radical fringe of die-hards. Secondly, even if by some freak miracle a state and its governor were to ratify Articles of Sucession from the Union and the governor called up the State National Guard to enforce it, all the President has to do is federalize the State Guard and order it to stand down. If by some even crazier miracle the President were worried about the loyalty of the Guard troops all he has to do is call in some active duty troops..like the 101st Airborne or 82nd Airborne, similar to what President Eisenhower did in the 1950's when he called the 101st to enforce Supreme Court ordered desegregation of Little Rock Central High School. A few die-hard sucessionists that happened to be in a states' weekend warrior force or a few militia guys playing with guns in the woods of Michigan would be no match for a combat hardened unit like the 82nd. I can reasonably say this because I spent 21 years in the military and know very well their capabilities. The end result of all this would be the ringleaders would be life-imprisoned on treason charges and the rank and file given lengthy prison terms in a federal pen. If anyone doubts the scenario I outlined above...I may have a bridge in Brooklyn that you may be intersted in purchasing from me. It really is pointless for anyone to continue to drink the sucession Kool-Aid. It is pie in the sky...will never happen.

I honestly believe that all who are dissatified with the direction this country is going should find some more effective way to affect change, such as grass roots voting drives to throw the bums out of office(grass roots voting drives are the biggest reason why Obama is in office), term limits, and peaceful protests/picketing are some examples of ways to affect change. If one is angry at the direction the country is going stop wasting times with ideas and methods that will never work and try some that have at least a chance of working.

dick burns
dick burns

hmm, so there's nothing in the consititution that would prohibit a state from banning personal firearms--- so isn't that a state's right? be careful how you use and misuse the constitution-- expecially the tenth amendment or it will come back to bite you

Trouble
Trouble

John- Actually Montana's bill(pardon, that's Law now!) makes no mention of any type of licensing. They simply state "Made in Montana" and kept in the state for both sales and use. That is literally all it says!

Texas is working on this as well. So are Utah, South Carolina, Tennessee, and at least a couple more that I cannot bring to mind at the moment.

My hope is that the process boils down to the States demanding that the Federal Government get back in line. With a majority of the States doing so already, this has a greater chance of happening than it did even six months ago. As Glenn Beck has been calling it, the "Civilest of Wars" without a shot fired. Let it be so!

Despite my defense of secession earlier, I really do not want to see that happen. It would be to everyone's benefit, liberal, libertarian, or conservative, if things are simply retored to proper balance through the actions of the States we see in process.

Should a State choose to secede, we'll see one of two things happen. Either the DC crowd will roll over and accept it, in which case other States will follow in very short order, or the DC crowd will try to use some form of force (economic or military) to rein in the "offending" State.

It's the latter one that is the most destructive, and I fear, the most likely should a State secede. Tyrants rarely release power willingly.

James Newman- Fox actually mentioned the BC issue and WND's petition on the "Political Grapevine" section of Bret Bair's show yesterday. It was short, but informative and fair. WND now has over 400,000 signatures on their BC petition. Most interesting.

You're nicer to the White House occupant than I am. I refer to him as Fascist O with regrettably painful accuracy.

JMB
JMB

Good comment Jerry C, I enthusiastically concur.

John
John

I love this site, thanks to the foxnews article. Mentioned this to many friends, they have been happily surprised by its existence.

No idea why so many of you seem to be upset over the discussion of secession. There are a great many people who have been quite upset with the direction of the country for a long long time. Politicians stifle so much of what this country could be, it's unbelievable. Getting those same people out of office is nearly impossible with so much of the gerrymandering that has taken place.

States like Montana and their effort to license ammunition manufacturers is one of the finest ideas I have seen come out of a State in a long time. The Federal government should be there to protect us, operate central functions like the treasury and govern its people lightly. If it chooses to function as the answer to everyone's problems, they we are truly doomed. But what's important is to operate in an even fashion throughout. If the ATF succeeds in keeping Montana from its ammo licensing, it better as hell get all these States to stop issuing these ridiculous legalized pot laws too. It's either / or, but not both.

Terry Morris
Terry Morris

Guys, it's secession (from the root "secede"), not succession.

Second, as I've said many times before, "voluntary union equals the right to secession." And if the union of states is not voluntary, it is then what? Ans: Involuntary.

I thought the fourteenth amendment (supposedly) ended involuntary servitude in America. It seems to be the (favorable) opinion of some that it, in reality, created a situation where the states and the people thereof would be involuntarily subject to the arbitrary rule of the central government for henceforth and for always; that it subjected the living (us) to the arbitrary rule of a dead generation (them). Which is yet another of my pet peeves -- the proposition that a dead generation has some legitimate authority to rule over the living.

Roland, have you never read:

But whenever a long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government...

But I get it:

Prudence indeed will dictate ... And accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind is more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves.

But of course the Continental Congress didn't presume to speak for us, it spoke for its own generation, which is why the Declaration states: "We (heavy on the WE) hold these truths to be self-evident..." Whether we (meaning us - this generation of Americans) hold those truths to be self-evident -- life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness; government by consent of the People, etc., is a whole 'nother story.

It's just that when you say things to the effect that 'federal' authority trumps state authority under any and all conditions (whenever they conflict), you sound like an abject slave.

There is a school of thought out there which states (on immigration in particular, but on everything governmental by implication) that all that needs be done is for the feds to "occupy the field," and "intend a complete ouster" in order to subject the states and the people thereof to its unquestionable authority. You come across as someone who holds such an illegitimate (not to mention un-American) doctrine to be a sacred truth in your statements above.

May your chains sit on you lightly.

Jerry Christenson
Jerry Christenson

Great comments from all. My opinion is that these states rights resolutions will need some actual specific refusals and/or nullivacations behing themto start any attention from DC. My thought is to start listing our state objections (maybe at this site) and then states can add them as they wish.

I would start with allowing state residents to reduce their federal taxes by a percentage of what the federal government is doing outside of their consitutional rights, like 1) federal bailouts; 2) owning car companies; 3) breaking contract clauses - auto's, AIG, etc.; 4) redusing to allow banks to repay bailouts; 5) Cap & Trade; 6) national heathcare; 7) motorcycle helments; 8) mandating state drinking ages; etc., etc. etc.

Plus, any mandate without funds to pay for it (or even with funds if it intrusive to peoples rights) outside of the consititution.
Just my thoughts.

timothy eastridge
timothy eastridge

To debate is to legitimize your thoughts by words. That is, someone agreeing to what you have said and giving your argument weight. We all here at this board agree that the Federal Government is losing focus of what the constitution and paticularly the Tenth Amendment is all about. Words without action is meaningless. What we call in the south "An Alligator mouth with a paper behind". If you are truly at ends with how the government is trampling your rights, then action is the only recourse. We can all sit behind our computer and release our anger by placing our words on this post or you can sit at your computer and send countless letters to your representatives and constituents expressing anger and outrage. This is the beginning. Only real action such as rallies in your hometown, Starting groups that can network across the state in which you live, placing pressure on the representatives that sit in Washington and only come home when it time seek reelection. Make them come back to their state and hold them accountable to explain their actions in front of a free audience that does not pay a thousand dollars a plate. When a politician feels threatened job wise, they begin to act in a paticular fashion. They begin to hide behind three simple letters C-Y-A. Cover Your @#$.

James Newman
James Newman

For Roland Wilson: You state, "..I still respect him as our President and Commander in Chief because he was legally elected according to the process set forth in the Constitution".

I agree with you with the exception of that statement. The current resident of the White House has spent nearly one million dollars to hide his records, was not properly vetted as to his eligibility to hold office, and for those reasons, I cannot agree that he was "legally elected according the the process set forth in the Constitution".

Until the issue of eligibility, that not even Fox News is willing to mention, is resolved, I will continue to refer to Mr Soetoro as the current resident of the White House.

Neil Bailey
Neil Bailey

Talk of secession _is_ insane, and will only result in any serious conversation regarding abuse of power by the fdederal government as radical fringe ranting.

I for one do not believe what Lincoln did was illegal, but rather that he did what was necessary in a singular point in time during our nation's history. The man held the country together by sheer force of his will.

The federal government is most definitely out of control. Senators and Representives no longer represent the people in any fashion, lobbyist groups and PC nazis have made it damn near impossible to do anything about the illegal immigration epidemic, and the extreme left has managed to hoodwink the American public.

I would love to believe that better days are coming, but the entire country is nearly bankrupt - I wonder what the world will think of the U.S. when the entire country is metaphorically sleeping on a heating grate - oh, that's right; they won't think of us at all.

I truly believe Obama is sincere. But, unfortunately, the methods and policies he is pushing have all been tried in the past.

They didn't work. Ask the country formerly known as the Soviet Union. That nation may never recover.

Trouble
Trouble

Disagreement accepted. Now I must provide a rebuttal.

The Tenth is clear:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Secession is a power not delegated. Nor is it prohibited by the Constitution to the States. Following that logic, it is therefore reserved to the States or the People. In the end that really means the People and that is all. The People of a State retain the right to secede should the need arise.

I know where you are coming from regarding implied powers. There are none in the Constitution. Article 1, Section 8 spells out the limited powers very plainly and that is all the Federal Government is supposed to have.

The usual place where implied powers come into play is in regard to the Commerce clause in Article 1, Section 8. Unfortunately the meaning of the word "regulate" has been changed from its original meaning.

The original meaning was "to make regular". In the case of the phrasing of the Constitution this boiled down to "encourage trade" between the States, Foreign Nations and Indian Tribes. Small details like making sure the States didn't impose restrictive tariffs on each other would fall under this. But that's really all.

Unfortunately for us, today the word is being used as "to limit" or "to control" more than anything else. By that use, the Congress has violated free trade principals many times over and has repeatedly used it to restrict private ownership of firearms among other things.

Indeed almost all of the regulation stems from a case in 1938 where a farmer grew one acre of wheat for his personal use. Congress decided they could warp the clause by saying that if enough farmers did that, then it would affect interstate commerce. A blatant violation of the farmer's property rights that was. It has become standard practice to twist and warp the commerce clause to whatever ends the DC crowd wants.

So to return to original comment, by the Declaration of Independence, we have already used secession to free the original 13 States from Great Britain, then in our Constitution we have neither delegated it to the Federal Government, nor restricted it from the States. Therefore, the States and the People retain that right.

Roland Wilson
Roland Wilson

Trouble,

I must respectfully disagree with you that the 10th amendment allows for sucession...it does not mention it at all. It is even hard to justify it as an implied power. Even if you could justify it as an implied power, are we sure we want to go down that simply slope? Congress and the Supreme Court using implied powers as a justification, are one of the chief reasons that the federal government become so bloated, big and powerful in the first place. Trying justify sucession via implied power makes the one trying to do so no better than the people who used implied powers to make the federal government so big and powerful.

Trouble
Trouble

I must disagree with those of you saying that secession is a ridiculous and unviable option. The country you live in was founded from an act of secession when the the original 13 colonies told Great Britain they were through with the King's misrule.

Granted, Abraham Lincoln was responsible for creating the strong impression that secession cannot be allowed, but his actions were illegal. In no way does the Constitution eliminate secession as an option. Indeed the Tenth Amendment itself allows it plainly. That power is not prohibited by the Constitution and so remains to the States. End of story.

As for nullification, the most famous example is the Kentucky resolutions of 1798. These nullified the Alien and Sedition Act that quite literally made it illegal to disagree with the government and violated the First amendment. We do want to be able to disagree with DC do we not?

Why on earth would we want to label potentially necessary tools for preserving Liberty as "ridiculous, ...nonsense and rhetoric"?? (Not meaning to pick on you Neil Bailey, but you did leave me a good line to use.) King George said that of the Declaration of Independence and look what that got him.

As I have said many times before, I dearly hope secession does not become necessary. HOWEVER, nullification is indeed necessary and is in play right now. I refer directly to the Anti-REAL ID bills that are becoming laws throughout the States. In addition to that example, the Firearms Freedom Acts currently developing are also an example of nullification.

These acts of nullification are the best route to recover our stolen Liberties. The Lower (aka Federal) Government is subordinate to the States as the States delegated 17 powers in Article 1 Section 8. Those limits have been badly violated for many years. It's time to bring it to a stop.

Roland, my thanks for your service. I suspect there will be many good discussions with you on the subjects here.

Neil Bailey
Neil Bailey

Succession is ridiculous, and any talk thereof is just nonsense and rhetoric. The bottom line is that the federal government controls the federal military, and the military is simply too powerful to be overcome without a _monster_ groundswell of opposition - and there are far too many suckling at the public teat for that groundswell of opposition to materialize.

That being said, I _strongly_ agree with most of the other states-rights supporters who have commented here.

Roland, either you weren't paying attention, or didn't really understand what was happening when you took the oath. I also took the oath when I joined the U.S. Army, and that oath is to preserve, protect and defend the _Constitution_ of the United States from _all_ enemies (and here is the key fragment:) foreign and domestic. So, in short sir, the oath you took doesn't actually mean anything in terms of the federal government.

It is _not_ the government's responsibility to feed, clothe or even - yes, I said it - educate your children. It is not the government's responsibility to provide you with health insurance, a new automobile or a big screen TV w/ HD satelite.

Unfortunately, most of the citizens - the very people from whom support would be needed in order for the federal government to be shackled - of this country are simply too comfortable, too cowed, or too concerned with making their next mortgage payment to worry about abstract ideas like states rights, and I am afraid that until a radical like Obama comes along and pushes his agenda just one step too far......

Roland Wilson
Roland Wilson

Michael,

I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the USA when I joined the the Air Force in Jan 1988 and that has been the guiding light of my service unti I retired from the Air Force last month. Regarding federal power, I do not believe the federal government has unlimited power, as the 10th amendment properly states: the powers not specifically delegated to the US by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or the people. The founding fathers correctly recognized that powers and decisions are better made at a more local level (I.E States or the people themselves) and I fully support reasonable States rights. I like Carrie, TX idea of more local control over our our non-defense tax dollars. I just get angry when some nut-jobs out there start talking about lunatic ideas such as nullification and succssion. I DO NOT agree with President Obama's spending so much OUR and our kids/grandkids money, his ideas on closing Gitmo, his handling of foreign affairs vis-vis Iran and North Korea, cutting the defense budget, and a host of other issues. Despite me disagreeing with him on just about everything, I still respect him as our President and Commander in Chief because he was legally elected according to the process set forth in the Constitution. I plan on taking out my frustrations at the ballot box at all levels...starting with 2010 mid-term elections...we need more GOP lawmakers at all levels of government...then hopefully a president who is more in tune with the ideas the founding fathers had. I belive we need a strong grass roots effort to take back the country from the tax and spend liberals.

matt
matt

Roland- are you familiar with the 10th amendment? here let me familiarize you with it. It states "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Pretty simple actually. If the constitution doesn't grant the feds a specific power, they don't have it. So in article 6 when it says, “This constitution, and the laws of USA which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which will be made, under the authority of the USA, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the constitution or Laws of any State to the contrary nothwithstanding.” It doesn't state nor imply that the federal government has power to do anything, it is simply saying that the laws that are made by the feds "pursuance thereof" the constitution are the law of the land. Now looking back at the tenth amendment any simple minded person could draw a conclusion that article 6 does not give the federal gov't unlimited power, yet simply says that they're powers granted to them by the constitution can not be overridden by the states. Pretty simple actually.

matt
matt

Roland- are you familiar with the 10th amendment? here let me familiarize you with it. It states "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Pretty simple actually. If the constitution doesn't grant the feds a specific power, they don't have it. So in article 6 when it says, “This constitution, and the laws of USA which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which will be made, under the authority of the USA, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the constitution or Laws of any State to the contrary nothwithstanding.” It doesn't state nor imply that the federal government has power to do anything, it is simply saying that the laws that are made by the feds "pursuance thereof" the constitution are the law of the land. Now looking back at the tenth amendment any simple minded person could draw a conclusion that article 6 does not give the federal gov't unlimited power, yet simply says that they're powers granted to them by the constitution can not be overridden by the states. Pretty simple actually.

Carrie, TX
Carrie, TX

Wow - this is really refreshing to see educated debates on an issue instead of ignorant name calling. I truly believe that all "government programs" would be better controlled if they were administered on a more local level. Do you realize how prosperous we would ALL be if each state kept its own citizens' tax money (probably less than half of what the feds take) and used it to further the needs and agenda of its own citizens? In Texas, we have different monetary needs that those in New York. And I assume those in Ohio don't have a big border control problem and could probably use their money elsewhere. Each state should be responsible for managing itslef according to the needs of its own people. This would make government smaller and enable citizens to get involved and make an actual difference. No one hears you in DC, but they do in Austin.

Just Wondering
Just Wondering

Roland, Please take a look at the following link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw
It may help you discover what you are about to receive for your patriotic efforts! Thank you for your service in the Airforce and helping the USA to fight for Life, LIBERTY (as opposed to Tyranny), and the Pursuit of Happiness!

Roland Wilson
Roland Wilson

Sucession? Nullification of federal laws? I am shocked and disheartened that anyone would entertain such LUNACY. I proudly served America in the Air Force for 21 years (to include service in Iraq, Korea, and Bosnia) and I took an oath to the CONSTITUTION, not any one state. It is to America as a whole where our ultimate loyalty should lie. Let me refresh all you EXTREME state-rightists about what Article 6 of the Constitiution says: "This constitution, and the laws of USA which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which will be made, under the authority of the USA, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the constitution or Laws of any State to the contrary nothwithstanding." Translation: federal authority trumps state authority whenever there is a disagreement between them. The US Constitution is what every state agreed to abide by when they first joined the union. There is no turning back. If one is unhappy about the direction of government why not ease one's frustration at the ballot box and effect real change legally. We do not need to fight the Civil War again or turn to some clearly illegal/unconstitutional action like SC's nullification of the Tariffs of 1828 and 1832 (which President Jackson had to put down under threat of force). A divided USA would be easy fodder for the tyrants and terrorists the world over. It is through the power of a UNITED America that most of the free world has enjoyed mostly peace and liberty since the end of WWII (with the glaring exception of 9-11 and other terorist atrocities). I would hate to see how awful the world would be without the stabilizing influence of a United and strong America. Terrorists and tyrants would terrorize and possibly destroy the world with nobody to stop them. Extreme state rightists: please stop drinking the Kool-Aid of disunion and maybe start making plans to affect change legally.

Michael Boldin
Michael Boldin

Roland - are you saying that you took an oath to follow every law that the federal government passes, or did you take an oath to support and defend the constitution?

Here's the key - there's actually a huge difference between the two.

Steve in Bama
Steve in Bama

MaryAnn writes:
"If the States want to challenge the Federal Government on their 10th amendment rights, which I fully support, they will have to first stop taking federal money..."

I think you've got it backwards. Why shouldn't a state take back money that was/is their people's in the first place? No. I think the answer is that states will have to first stop GIVING federal money. In other words, the state needs to cut out the IRS and collect taxes themselves, then forward an "appropriate" amount on to the federal government for its legitimate duties. That's when the rubber would hit the road.

Michael Boldin
Michael Boldin

Steve, that's actually a really good perspective! I wonder how that would all play out - any thoughts?

timothy eastridge
timothy eastridge

States rights under the tenth amendment are not fundamentally guaranteed due to the supreme court being the sole interpretor of the constitution (Marbury v. Madison 1803). As envisoned by Thomas Jefferson the States were to retain individual rights, with the Federal Government acting on behalf of the states in regard to Import and Export control, disputes between states, and dealing with foreign governments. The supreme court in conjunction with landmark decisions, began curtailing states rights by allowing federal mandates such as the interstate commerce commission to control commerce between the states, and giving non-governmental agencies such as the IRS and the Federal Reserve express power to collect taxes and coin money without due process or permission by the states. If federal representatives and senators represent their home states why is there such a division? Who do they really represent if not the states they call home? I believe that states should have the right to control their own interest without having to ask permission. I also believe that we must tread lightly when the words secession, rebellion, and insurrection start to form in the womb.

Michael Boldin
Michael Boldin

Some great points here - one thing I'd like to add to Timothy's comment. We have to remember that states don't actually have rights. people do.

State governments act as agents of the people who live in their borders....similar to how the federal government was created by the people of the several states to be their agent for certain enumerated purposes...

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