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	<title>Comments on: Supreme Court isn&#8217;t Supreme</title>
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	<description>Concordia res Parvae Crescunt</description>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/05/13/supreme-court-isnt-supreme/comment-page-1/#comment-255760</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 14:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/?p=1670#comment-255760</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, mostly what sickens me about that book is the flavor infusing it that the racist politicians of the time should be given all the weight in the discussion, as opposed to, say, the ones that weren&#039;t, which are dismissed as &quot;latitudinarians&quot;, simply because giving the other ones weight would weaken the argument the author was trying to make about states rights. 

The &quot;troll&quot; part was more about the axe grinding, which he goes to great length to accuse Curtis of, when hypocritically it is entirely clear that he wrote this book and carefully chose his quotations with the intent of proving the widest possible interpretation of his pre-determined conclusion about the meaning of the 14th Amendment. 

(Yes, I know, I&#039;m batshit crazy for actually reading that entire book just to have an informed discussion on an obscure blog somewhere)

In any event, it does open my eyes considerably. We tend to imbue the framers of the Constitution with a mythic heroic aura of people trying birth a state in liberty. It&#039;s clear from this book that most of them were bickering petty partisan politicians.

The conclusion it brings me to, personally, is that &quot;original intent&quot;, as meant by the people that are currently using it (as opposed to how I mean it), is far too dangerous a means to use for interpreting the Constitution. Well, besides that, it seems to be being used more or less as &quot;reactionary conservatism&quot;. 

It&#039;s far too easy to find your axe, and then grind it on the words of one or the other side of the debate over the meaning of a particular clause, while ignoring the other side, and indeed the plain and simple clear meaning of the words of the Constitution itself. 

I restrict myself to honoring &quot;original intent&quot; only in that the words of the Constitution should be thought of as having their plain simple English meaning at the time of their adoption (as opposed to reinventing the meanings of the words to their modern linguistically drifted ones, as has been done with phrases like &quot;well-regulated militia&quot;). If the framers wanted it to mean something else, they should have chosen their words more carefully.

Surely, if there were a clause in the Constitution something like &quot;the pursuit of being gay&quot; rather than &quot;happiness&quot;, we can&#039;t take our modern meaning of the word &quot;gay&quot; and apply it to only giving people the right to try to be homosexual (though I think people should be free to pursue that modern meaning if they want). 

But I&#039;m completely uninterested in going past that to some kind of bizarre argument about what kinds of things might have made people happy in the 18th century, and therefore what they &quot;meant&quot; by the &quot;pursuit of happiness&quot;. Or, indeed, what the racist politicians of the time might have thought of as the &quot;proper place&quot; of the negro, or of women. 

If watching TV makes people happy today, and it doesn&#039;t interfere with the rights of others to pursue happiness as they see fit, I&#039;m perfectly ok with interpreting the Constitution as saying people shouldn&#039;t be arbitrarily restricted from watching however much TV they want, even though TV didn&#039;t exist at the time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, mostly what sickens me about that book is the flavor infusing it that the racist politicians of the time should be given all the weight in the discussion, as opposed to, say, the ones that weren&#8217;t, which are dismissed as &#8220;latitudinarians&#8221;, simply because giving the other ones weight would weaken the argument the author was trying to make about states rights. </p>
<p>The &#8220;troll&#8221; part was more about the axe grinding, which he goes to great length to accuse Curtis of, when hypocritically it is entirely clear that he wrote this book and carefully chose his quotations with the intent of proving the widest possible interpretation of his pre-determined conclusion about the meaning of the 14th Amendment. </p>
<p>(Yes, I know, I&#8217;m batshit crazy for actually reading that entire book just to have an informed discussion on an obscure blog somewhere)</p>
<p>In any event, it does open my eyes considerably. We tend to imbue the framers of the Constitution with a mythic heroic aura of people trying birth a state in liberty. It&#8217;s clear from this book that most of them were bickering petty partisan politicians.</p>
<p>The conclusion it brings me to, personally, is that &#8220;original intent&#8221;, as meant by the people that are currently using it (as opposed to how I mean it), is far too dangerous a means to use for interpreting the Constitution. Well, besides that, it seems to be being used more or less as &#8220;reactionary conservatism&#8221;. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s far too easy to find your axe, and then grind it on the words of one or the other side of the debate over the meaning of a particular clause, while ignoring the other side, and indeed the plain and simple clear meaning of the words of the Constitution itself. </p>
<p>I restrict myself to honoring &#8220;original intent&#8221; only in that the words of the Constitution should be thought of as having their plain simple English meaning at the time of their adoption (as opposed to reinventing the meanings of the words to their modern linguistically drifted ones, as has been done with phrases like &#8220;well-regulated militia&#8221;). If the framers wanted it to mean something else, they should have chosen their words more carefully.</p>
<p>Surely, if there were a clause in the Constitution something like &#8220;the pursuit of being gay&#8221; rather than &#8220;happiness&#8221;, we can&#8217;t take our modern meaning of the word &#8220;gay&#8221; and apply it to only giving people the right to try to be homosexual (though I think people should be free to pursue that modern meaning if they want). </p>
<p>But I&#8217;m completely uninterested in going past that to some kind of bizarre argument about what kinds of things might have made people happy in the 18th century, and therefore what they &#8220;meant&#8221; by the &#8220;pursuit of happiness&#8221;. Or, indeed, what the racist politicians of the time might have thought of as the &#8220;proper place&#8221; of the negro, or of women. </p>
<p>If watching TV makes people happy today, and it doesn&#8217;t interfere with the rights of others to pursue happiness as they see fit, I&#8217;m perfectly ok with interpreting the Constitution as saying people shouldn&#8217;t be arbitrarily restricted from watching however much TV they want, even though TV didn&#8217;t exist at the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Henry Lives</title>
		<link>http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/05/13/supreme-court-isnt-supreme/comment-page-1/#comment-255758</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Henry Lives</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 14:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/?p=1670#comment-255758</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Patrick, for your kind words.  I hold a JD and am a licensed attorney, but have not practiced for many years now. I don&#039;t know much, but I know enough to see we big, big problems coming if we don&#039;t find a way to cut back the scope of federal powers.  I must say, I am greatly encouraged by the 10th Amendment Resolutions that are multiplying across the nation.  However, unless there is some kind of Constitutional convention to float amendments to reign in the federal government the resolutions will accomplish little standing alone.  Our only real hope in the end is the moral courage and resolution to secede from the Union.  Radical as that seems, I find no other reasonable solution on the horizon.

Blessings,]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Patrick, for your kind words.  I hold a JD and am a licensed attorney, but have not practiced for many years now. I don&#8217;t know much, but I know enough to see we big, big problems coming if we don&#8217;t find a way to cut back the scope of federal powers.  I must say, I am greatly encouraged by the 10th Amendment Resolutions that are multiplying across the nation.  However, unless there is some kind of Constitutional convention to float amendments to reign in the federal government the resolutions will accomplish little standing alone.  Our only real hope in the end is the moral courage and resolution to secede from the Union.  Radical as that seems, I find no other reasonable solution on the horizon.</p>
<p>Blessings,</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/05/13/supreme-court-isnt-supreme/comment-page-1/#comment-255750</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 13:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/?p=1670#comment-255750</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also, Ray, you&#039;re confusing legal doctrines again. The comoon law principle of precedent &quot;stare decisis&quot; and our constitutional foundation doesn&#039;t imbue judges with the policy-making powers they&#039;ve grabbed for themselves. The Founders specifically refused to give judges a policy-making role (which was reserved to the legislature) so their liberal use of the 14th to create &quot;penumbras&quot; and other dubious legal doctrines are in direct defiance of our legal system. Basically, the other departments (&amp; the states) are not required to comply with blantantly unconstituyional Supreme Court opinions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Ray, you&#8217;re confusing legal doctrines again. The comoon law principle of precedent &#8220;stare decisis&#8221; and our constitutional foundation doesn&#8217;t imbue judges with the policy-making powers they&#8217;ve grabbed for themselves. The Founders specifically refused to give judges a policy-making role (which was reserved to the legislature) so their liberal use of the 14th to create &#8220;penumbras&#8221; and other dubious legal doctrines are in direct defiance of our legal system. Basically, the other departments (&amp; the states) are not required to comply with blantantly unconstituyional Supreme Court opinions.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/05/13/supreme-court-isnt-supreme/comment-page-1/#comment-255749</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 13:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/?p=1670#comment-255749</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I give Patrick Henry Lives tons of credit for knowing his stuff! PHL, you defintely have done the research on the subjects we&#039;re talking about. You definitely have my respect.

Ray, on the other hand, your dig at the widely recognized and respected constitutional scholar Raoul Berger as a &quot;racist troll&quot; says far more about your rush to judgment than it does about that great man. Don&#039;t be so quick to slander ideas to which you haven not been exposed before. The jurisprudence of the Constitution is a difficult subject with a wide range of dissenting opinions. It&#039;s not as clear cut as you would like to make it appear. Trust me ... as a bar certified lawyer with a JD plus a masters in law, if you think a legal argument is simple and straight-forward, it&#039;s probably because you&#039;re overlooking something.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I give Patrick Henry Lives tons of credit for knowing his stuff! PHL, you defintely have done the research on the subjects we&#8217;re talking about. You definitely have my respect.</p>
<p>Ray, on the other hand, your dig at the widely recognized and respected constitutional scholar Raoul Berger as a &#8220;racist troll&#8221; says far more about your rush to judgment than it does about that great man. Don&#8217;t be so quick to slander ideas to which you haven not been exposed before. The jurisprudence of the Constitution is a difficult subject with a wide range of dissenting opinions. It&#8217;s not as clear cut as you would like to make it appear. Trust me &#8230; as a bar certified lawyer with a JD plus a masters in law, if you think a legal argument is simple and straight-forward, it&#8217;s probably because you&#8217;re overlooking something.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/05/13/supreme-court-isnt-supreme/comment-page-1/#comment-255705</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 00:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/?p=1670#comment-255705</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting book, Patrick. I really thought that I had seen it all, but I admit I&#039;m stunned to find my experience stretched.

I had not imagined possible that a serious scholarly book could be that axe-grinding and plainly racist. 

I guess trolls are not as limited to the internet age as I had once thought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting book, Patrick. I really thought that I had seen it all, but I admit I&#8217;m stunned to find my experience stretched.</p>
<p>I had not imagined possible that a serious scholarly book could be that axe-grinding and plainly racist. </p>
<p>I guess trolls are not as limited to the internet age as I had once thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/05/13/supreme-court-isnt-supreme/comment-page-1/#comment-255701</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 23:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/?p=1670#comment-255701</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another point about the 14th Amendment is that, regardless of what states might have improperly ratified it at the time it was proposed, by 2003 (indeed, mostly by 1900) every state in the Union at the time it was proposed had ratified it, even the ones that previously had rejected it.

Article V doesn&#039;t lay out any time limit for ratification, so you have to accept that it has been properly ratified by 3/4 of the states, even if there were some improprieties at earlier dates.

And, in fact, there were no significant improprieties. The southern states had seceded. The U.S. was free to make any conditions it wanted on the readmission of those states to the Union, and they did i8n fact ratify it (and the 13th and 15th).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another point about the 14th Amendment is that, regardless of what states might have improperly ratified it at the time it was proposed, by 2003 (indeed, mostly by 1900) every state in the Union at the time it was proposed had ratified it, even the ones that previously had rejected it.</p>
<p>Article V doesn&#8217;t lay out any time limit for ratification, so you have to accept that it has been properly ratified by 3/4 of the states, even if there were some improprieties at earlier dates.</p>
<p>And, in fact, there were no significant improprieties. The southern states had seceded. The U.S. was free to make any conditions it wanted on the readmission of those states to the Union, and they did i8n fact ratify it (and the 13th and 15th).</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/05/13/supreme-court-isnt-supreme/comment-page-1/#comment-255696</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 22:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/?p=1670#comment-255696</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think perhaps you misunderstand how &quot;Common Law&quot; works, i.e. the legal tradition under which the Constitution was instituted and which is, in fact, specifically mentioned in the 7th Amendment as being the only valid legal system for (at least) civil cases, and by implication criminal cases as well.

In a Common Law system, the decision of a higher court *always* create binding precedent for all lower courts and interpret the law for them. The goal of this is to have a legal interpretation that is uniform (i.e. &quot;common&quot;) across the jurisdiction of the court system.

This is in contrast to &quot;Civil Law&quot;, in which precedent is not binding from court to court (only within 1 court). And, indeed, there isn&#039;t really such a thing as binding precedent in Civil Law.

The reason that the Supreme Court can in effect declare a law unconstitutional is that its precedent is binding on all lower courts. Indeed, it doesn&#039;t &quot;throw out&quot; laws (though this is a common idiom for it). It merely makes them unenforceable in the legal system. Many unconstitutional laws remain on the books in numerous states (impotent). The courts cannot make law, nor remove law. They can only refuse to enforce it.

If you want Civil Law in this country, you would need a very different Constitutional Amendment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think perhaps you misunderstand how &#8220;Common Law&#8221; works, i.e. the legal tradition under which the Constitution was instituted and which is, in fact, specifically mentioned in the 7th Amendment as being the only valid legal system for (at least) civil cases, and by implication criminal cases as well.</p>
<p>In a Common Law system, the decision of a higher court *always* create binding precedent for all lower courts and interpret the law for them. The goal of this is to have a legal interpretation that is uniform (i.e. &#8220;common&#8221;) across the jurisdiction of the court system.</p>
<p>This is in contrast to &#8220;Civil Law&#8221;, in which precedent is not binding from court to court (only within 1 court). And, indeed, there isn&#8217;t really such a thing as binding precedent in Civil Law.</p>
<p>The reason that the Supreme Court can in effect declare a law unconstitutional is that its precedent is binding on all lower courts. Indeed, it doesn&#8217;t &#8220;throw out&#8221; laws (though this is a common idiom for it). It merely makes them unenforceable in the legal system. Many unconstitutional laws remain on the books in numerous states (impotent). The courts cannot make law, nor remove law. They can only refuse to enforce it.</p>
<p>If you want Civil Law in this country, you would need a very different Constitutional Amendment.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Henry Lives</title>
		<link>http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/05/13/supreme-court-isnt-supreme/comment-page-1/#comment-255695</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Henry Lives</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 21:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/?p=1670#comment-255695</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NO!!!!  Just the opposite, in the case of the 14th Amendment it is nearly always WRONG.  The Bill of Rights do not apply to the states through the 14th!!!!  This is pure judicial usurpation!!!  See the excellent book at this link for the history and truth of the 14th Amendment.
http://www.stephankinsella.com/texts/berger_fourteenth_am_bill.pdf

When we talk about judicial supremacy, we merely mean that some beleive that the court is the last voice (regardless whether its decisions are right or wrong).  There is really no basis for this conclusion in the Constitution.  Congress can exert itself if it will, but has never done so, even though the problem with activist judges was present even in Jefferson&#039;s day. That is why some other device will have to be found if the 9th &amp; 10th will ever be more than dead letter again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NO!!!!  Just the opposite, in the case of the 14th Amendment it is nearly always WRONG.  The Bill of Rights do not apply to the states through the 14th!!!!  This is pure judicial usurpation!!!  See the excellent book at this link for the history and truth of the 14th Amendment.<br />
<a href="http://www.stephankinsella.com/texts/berger_fourteenth_am_bill.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.stephankinsella.com/texts/berger_fourteenth_am_bill.pdf</a></p>
<p>When we talk about judicial supremacy, we merely mean that some beleive that the court is the last voice (regardless whether its decisions are right or wrong).  There is really no basis for this conclusion in the Constitution.  Congress can exert itself if it will, but has never done so, even though the problem with activist judges was present even in Jefferson&#8217;s day. That is why some other device will have to be found if the 9th &amp; 10th will ever be more than dead letter again.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Boldin</title>
		<link>http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/05/13/supreme-court-isnt-supreme/comment-page-1/#comment-255693</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Boldin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 21:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/?p=1670#comment-255693</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wait, PHL, just so I get this right, are you saying that the supreme court, when it rules on the constitution, is never wrong?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait, PHL, just so I get this right, are you saying that the supreme court, when it rules on the constitution, is never wrong?</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Henry Lives</title>
		<link>http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/05/13/supreme-court-isnt-supreme/comment-page-1/#comment-255691</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Henry Lives</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 21:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/?p=1670#comment-255691</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Judicial supremacy states that the federal judiciary is the ultimate interpretor of the Constitution.  Supremacy clause says that the Federal constitution and decisional and statutory law passed pursuant thereto becomes the supreme law of the land.  Big difference.

Although expressly permitted to regulate the court&#039;s jurisdiction, presently, Congress only passes laws limiting judical review to things like highway construction to prevent them from getting tied up by environmental litigation, but has been unwilling to reign the courts in on issues of judge made constitutional law.  Congress could make findings and declarations of fact to the intended operation of the 14th Amendment and then limit judical review to comport with those limits, but it is unwilling to do so, and it is unclear what the courts would do if it tried.

Meanwhile, the nation is being bankrupted by a federal government whose constitutional reach has been expanded beyond its ability to pay the tab.  If we are to save the nation, we better find a way to reign congress and the courts in ASAP!  Or, maybe, Washington will go broke and close shop. Wouldn&#039;t America be a better place then?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judicial supremacy states that the federal judiciary is the ultimate interpretor of the Constitution.  Supremacy clause says that the Federal constitution and decisional and statutory law passed pursuant thereto becomes the supreme law of the land.  Big difference.</p>
<p>Although expressly permitted to regulate the court&#8217;s jurisdiction, presently, Congress only passes laws limiting judical review to things like highway construction to prevent them from getting tied up by environmental litigation, but has been unwilling to reign the courts in on issues of judge made constitutional law.  Congress could make findings and declarations of fact to the intended operation of the 14th Amendment and then limit judical review to comport with those limits, but it is unwilling to do so, and it is unclear what the courts would do if it tried.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, the nation is being bankrupted by a federal government whose constitutional reach has been expanded beyond its ability to pay the tab.  If we are to save the nation, we better find a way to reign congress and the courts in ASAP!  Or, maybe, Washington will go broke and close shop. Wouldn&#8217;t America be a better place then?</p>
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