Comments on: Who Was the Real Thomas Jefferson?

By: jeff2

jeff2 — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 00:10:33 +0000

If only the issue was all that easy to Jefferson, himself.   I can’t imagine how it could have been.

Clearly, an absolute right to nullify at will can be used as a device to pervert any attempt at forming or maintaining any kind of union.

Taken in its simplest analogy, a contract was formed between multiple parties, and yet, there was no means of arbitration to settle disputes.   Does this mean the contract is entirely unilateral and “at will” and thus, there is no contract at all?   Was this what the ratifiers had in mind when they considered whether or not to ratify?   Why would anyone have debated so hard and so long if the terms were, “Hey, if we don’t like it, we can quit any time?”   I have not yet seen any such claim by anyone of that era – not even Jefferson himself.

I have seen no claim by anyone of that era that the states can pick and choose what they want to follow and what they do not want to follow.   In that case, why have a national legislature?   Or why not just take the position, “Anything I don’t like is Unconstitutional? We’re our own judges.”

Jefferson clearly felt strongly in 1798 and 1799.   There is no doubt.   And for good reason, too. But I do not think his expressions on nullification are bullet-proof, nor can I imagine he did, either.   He had to be too smart not to realize the imperfect nature of taking either position as it relates to what to do when there is a dispute as to the scope of federal power.

I like the concept of nullification. It’s basically civil disobedience.   I think civil disobedience has done wonders here and there.   But this is not because the disobedient needed approval to disobey.   In essence, that is what the nullification debate should be about.   No approval needed.   Not Jefferson’s.   Not Madison’s.   Nobody’s.   Just do it because you feel strongly it is the right thing to do.

Here are the words of Jefferson which depart from the commonly-held view concerning “natural law:”

“I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable. But the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. The descent of property of every kind therefore to all the children, or to all the brothers and sisters, or other relations in equal degree is a politic measure, and a practicable one. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there is in any country, uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labour and live on. If, for the encouragement of industry we allow it to be appropriated, we must take care that other employment be furnished to those excluded from the appropriation.”

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch15s32.html

How do you square his thoughts above with the notion that he thought legislatures should have no place regulating the flow of wealth and property?   I personally can’t square these and think Jefferson was simply conflicted at times.

By: WilliamSchooler

WilliamSchooler — Tue, 03 Apr 2012 02:39:36 +0000

I love how economist love property rights because you cannot have wealth if you do not have property can you?
Of course having achievements of your ideas being made a reality could be property. But achievements also bring happiness don’t they and can both be one in the same? Yet the perversion of Property from a economists point of view is ownership which is different than achievement. If I steal I can have wealth and property but to achieve takes pride, learning, testing, effort, persistence and good choice making skills. But who is looking, I know I have.

The scholars of time have mucked things up for sure, impressing upon us great wisdoms of words but no wise choice from the experience itself. No true value for which to decide from and so many wishing to figure Thomas Jefferson out. But I recognized him, A LIFE, and idea man, a tester, and observer, one who liked experiencing many different things and did so. Yes he has written much in controversy because like all life we grow with time and lessons learned, we see more, we accumulate more and we grow as life.

From the writing in the Declaration of Independence I could see Thomas Jefferson recognized TRUTHS, he spelled them out clearly, he created a document that would free men from intrusion and he would make sure the tragedies were well known from his very own lessons as well the others he hung with. The alteration of the Document only showed some close to him would not allow certain truths to be revealed thus they were removed for ratification. Though he made sure the original existed. For that he was a brilliant man and his activities his very signature of these efforts.
He must of recognized he was not better than another to write this, he must of realized the importance of great choice making because this document if used as the deciding factor provides all support for life in its total attempt. So few today still get this authentic document and its truths but I was able to and upon its use did I experience its force and its truths. There is no way this was possible for me without him first revealing these things to himself. It would be impossible.

Life creates , absorbs and experiences, we decide and we enforce ourselves to our decisions. From these experiences we grow and this is nature not to be taken away or manipulated and for this reason we must have Liberty to be free of those attempting to enslave us. Mainly Governments because this and financiers were his greatest warnings but surely not his only warnings. This achieved through a constitution would insist life continue its journey, to create, dreams and test and decide and finally achieve some of these ideas or many of these ideas because there is no limits to this. You can have an abundance of achievements in a direction to support life only and not to control, or manipulate it.
In truth it is to Pursue our dreams into achievements and help us sustain our communities. Something Thomas Jefferson was well aware not only by philosophic study but of experiences in the communities he lived in which he would ride his horse or walk and discover. He was also involved in Christianity but he also warned against the practice because of the stories of jesus. There were other stories prior to these which left questions he could not answer but he knows there had to be morality and he expressed that Jesus showed some of the best examples of this. This is all in his own history and can be viewed.

So there is a great deal of a man who had a great deal of achievements in his life and where wisdom was entirely accumulated and it was his living that brought us the truths and not the scholarly teachings of Scholars. Many of those were passed on without review in the same way economics was passed on by those who wanted wealth to be the focus of life, wealth was not the focus of Thomas Jefferson. Yes he had slaves but I believe Thomas Jefferson learned a great deal about life through that experience and it was not of his doing but was of his undoing as he let them do as they please. Thomas Jefferson was brilliant by experiences because it validated or removed what he had read in books. Something the scholarly will never learn as long as they pride themselves as being above by the mastery of symbols which carry no such experiences until tested.

The wisdom of life is simple the experience of it and accumulation, Thomas Jefferson lived which means doing something, achieving ideas and dreams. He was a happy man and knew the real meaning so few are willing to test.
Yet so many will portray him as far less than this because they lack this much skill. I learned a great deal by my experienced and Thomas Jefferson only confirmed what I had learned so I am positive he learned it. Something I wish more could understand.

By: rexkuntz

rexkuntz — Mon, 02 Apr 2012 23:21:51 +0000

@RonPaul_2012 the thomas jefferson that is freeing minds today is the real thomas jefferson. the truth sets people free.