Original intent? Understanding? Meaning?

The Original Constitution

Get the 2nd Edition Today!

by Rob Natelson

When the Constitution was written, there were specific legal rules about how one goes about interpreting constitutional phrases. Over the course of time, however, judges and commentators gradually forgot them.

In the 1980s, some argued that the courts should “return” to applying the original intent behind the Constitution—that is,what the framers (drafters) of the document intended when they wrote it.

In his 1990 best seller, The Tempting of America, Judge Robert Bork recognized that this view was not entirely correct:

Madison himself said that what mattered was the intention of the ratifying conventions. His notes of the discussions at Philadelphia are merely evidence of what informed public men at the time thought the words of the Constitution meant. Since many of them were also delegates to the various state ratifying conventions, their understanding informed the delegates in those conventions . . . what counts is what the public understood.

But this excerpt contains confusion of its own. What exactly is Judge Bork saying should prevail: “The intention of the ratifying conventions” or  “What informed public men at the time thought” or “What the public understood?”

On the same page, Bork writes:

What is the meaning of a rule the judges should not change? It is the meaning understood at the time of the law’s enactment. Though I have written of the understanding of the ratifiers of the Constitution, since they enacted it and made it law, that is actually a shorthand formula, because what the ratifiers understood themselves to be enacting must be taken to be what the public of that time would have understood the words to mean. It is important to be clear about this. The search is not for subjective intention.

Judge Bork was right that secret (unannounced) subjective intention is not binding, but what if the ratifiers’ view of a clause was openly stated? He never fully explained why open statements should not control or why “what the ratifiers understood . . . must be taken to be what the public of the time would have understood.”

Judge Bork had good reason to be confused. During the decade before he wrote his book, authors of articles published in very prestigious legal journals had claimed that when a Founding-Era judge or lawyer construed a document, he wholly disregarded what the parties really intended—all that was important was the structure of the document and its objective meaning. Law professors and others cited these articles repeatedly and uncritically. I think Judge Bork was trying to reconcile their claims with what Madison had said.

Unfortunately, very few people bothered to check the footnotes in those articles. I was one of the few who did. I found that the authors had relied on a relatively few selected sources and sometimes had misrepresented what those sources actually said. I also found that some of their history was inaccurate.

But it was not until 2005, when I spent a semester in England, that I had access to libraries adequate for a full investigation (thanks to Oxford University and the Middle Temple). I spent much of my time leafing through a massive amount of material, learning how Founding-Era lawyers and judges actually interpreted legal documents. The answer was clear: Madison (as usual) was essentially correct.

The Founding Era touchstone for interpreting the Constitution was the subjective understanding of the ratifiers.Only if that understanding was unclear or contradictory did Founding-Era judges apply “what the public of that time would have understood the words to mean.” Judge Bork was right to the extent that original intent was useful insofar as it helped prove what the ratifiers understood or what the objective meaning was.

As often happens when one questions the prevailing wisdom, I had trouble getting my conclusions published in a leading journal. Law review editors just couldn’t believe that a professor from Montana could be right while prestigious authors writing in places like Harvard Law Review were wrong.

So after several months of frustration I withdrew the article, re-wrote it slightly, and, swallowing my distaste, gave it a far more pretentious title: The Founders’ Hermeneutic. (Hermeneutics is the study of meaning.)  Eventually, a well-regarded law journal published it. Some writers have tried to ignore it, some have admitted that is correct, and none has even attempted to rebut it.

In summary: When interpreting phrases in the Constitution, you look to how the ratifiers understood them. If the evidence on that point is lacking or contradictory, you apply the original public meaning (relying, for instance, on other legal documents and dictionaries). You can use the records of the drafting convention (”original intent”) as evidence of original understanding and original meaning.

Applying original intent, original understanding, or original meaning usually yields the same results. But sometimes not. For example, in 1787 most people could have interpreted the bans on state and federal ex post facto laws to prohibit retroactive civil laws as well as retroactive criminal laws. During the ratification process, however, the ratifiers made a public bargain to the effect that the bans would be applied only to criminal laws. This understanding appears in the ratification debates, in New York’s ratification resolutions, and in an uncontradicted comment by the leading Federalist John Dickinson. Under Founding-Era legal “hermeneutics,” that understanding is what governs.

In private life, Rob Natelson is a long-time conservative/free market activist, but professionally he is a constitutional scholar whose meticulous studies of the Constitution’s original meaning have been published or cited by many top law journals. (See: www.umt.edu/law/faculty/natelson.htm.) Most recently, he co-authored The Origins of the Necessary and Proper Clause (Cambridge University Press) and The Original Constitution (Tenth Amendment Center). After a quarter of a century as Professor of Law at the University of Montana, he recently retired to work full time at Colorado’s Independence Institute.

Enjoyed This Post?

We cannot succeed without your help, as we will never accept government grants or handouts. Please help us by investing in the Constitution and freedom today!

Enjoyed This Post?
67 comments
KathleenMoore
KathleenMoore

Wonderful article, really enjoyed it. Jealous of your trip to the Middle Temple!

Have downloaded your article on the "The Founders’ Hermeneutic: The Real Original Understanding of Original Intent" and look forward to reading it. In particular because I am working right now on a WordPress site discussing the 1865 Debates on Confederation, and a special 1951 Introduction by F. R. Scott in which he confirms that the Debates are judicial evidence.

I think that supports your position on subjective intent to be taken from the words of the ratifiers.

The 1865 Debates had most often, unfortunately, been left aside in Canadian constitutional interpretation due to the thankfully now-defunct "English exclusionary rule".

My site's not finished yet, I have a ton of work to do, including the page on "The Mischief Rule", but you might be curious to take a look at Scott's 1951 Introduction to the Index to the 1865 Debates. I've posted it here:

"F. R. Scott’s 1951 Introduction to the Debates of 1865"

http://www.christmasdreamthemes.com/home/audentes/public_html/tccwm-wp/?page_id=53

(Pardon the Christmas name, I'm economizing. Had to choose an existing domain for my hosting, but all my sites are in here, including this one, which will be under a domain in January, 2012.)

Kathleen Moore

HABEAS CORPUS CANADA

The Official Legal Challenge

To North American Union

www.habeascorpuscanada.com

phreedomphan
phreedomphan

@KathleenMoore Kathleen, I went first to your habeascorpuscanada site. Hadn't been there for a long time. When I clicked to enter I got a Webroot message telling me the site contained a security threat and recommended I shut down my browser immediately. Is one of the gangsterments messing with your site, or is this Webroot trying to prove its worth?

KathleenMoore
KathleenMoore

@phreedomphan@KathleenMoore

- I altered my DNS long before I posted my message above, so that my top-level domain uses a different backup site where there is no such FALSE message, an error caused by my old backup site in a free host that has a lot of serious problems.

There is, therefore, NO WAY you would have gotten the webroot error of my site as a "threat" by clicking my domain above AFTER I posted it here, because that url had been totally changed by then.

So, perhaps you "follow" me more than you admit, which would have to be the case for you to have noticed the false "threat" message that was removed several days before I posted here.

You seem to enjoy the subject of "threats", as I recall, which is why I have had to block you in other locations online. You must be delighted with the Obama regime's neighborhood fascism, citizen spying, and indefinite detention plans.

Why don't you put your face and your real name online, Mr. "Phreedom" Phan?

phreedomphan
phreedomphan like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Roberto Benitez@KathleenMoore I just saw a comment to you on Republic vs. Democracy by Tascmanwylie in another thread. You might not want to skip "Democracy or Republic" if you want another angle on that idea.

phreedomphan
phreedomphan like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Roberto Benitez@KathleenMoore Thanks, Roberto. I don't know what brought on that diatribe by Kathleen. The last I remember we were allies fighting the North American Union.

If you're interested, I've got my take on Fascism and the false political spectrum we're offered in this post in my Lost Liberty blog. You can scroll past "Democracy or Republic?" to "Fraudulent Political Spectrum."

http://phreedomphan-lostliberty.blogspot.com/2011/12/myths-misconceptions-and-misdirections.html

Roberto Benitez
Roberto Benitez

@KathleenMoore I found it interesting that you used the word fascism in describing Mr. Obama's regime. Here's an excellent definition of fascism I found on the internet; "Fascism is an economic model in which the state dictates the utilization of privately held assets to achieve public policy goals."

I believe this is exactly what's happening to America today. We're rapidly changing from the USA to the USSA. Fascism is one side of a coin the other side being socialism.

By the way, in my exchanges with phreedomphan, I've come away with the distinct impression he's hardly a fan of Mr. Obama. He might even agree with me that Mr. (intention) Obama is a Fabian socialist Muslim with nothing but disdain for the Constitution.

Let me add that on certain sites I also uses an aircraft as an avatar and a pseudonym due to death threats from rabid leftists. One such site is OpEdNews run by Rob Kall. I believe, but have no proof, that Kall allowed them access to my private information as he's an extreme leftist who couldn't stand me as a politically incorrect conservative curmudgeon.

phreedomphan
phreedomphan

@KathleenMoore I did exactly what I said I did. I went to your habeascorpus site from the link you posted here and most certainly got the message I said. I didn't make it up.

I was actually trying to give you a heads up. Had I known you were such a psychotic liar, I wouldn't have bothered. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in the rest of your rant. Can you be specific in your accusations? You should be able to make up something. Maybe you can make up a place where you "blocked" me. I certainly never encountered such a block.

"You must be delighted with the Obama regime's neighborhood fascism, citizen spying, and indefinite detention plans." Anyone who's read my blogs or the posts I've made on-line knows that sentence was the product of a defective mind.

One of the reasons I don't put my name and face online is that I was once stalked by another psychopath.

http://phreedomphan-lostliberty.blogspot.com/

http://phreedomphan-americasenemies.blogspot.com/

BTW, I've never blocked anyone anywhere. I'm not a gutless wonder.

Roberto Benitez
Roberto Benitez like.author.displayName 1 Like

Mr. Natelson, with all due respect I must kindly disagree with an opening statement. You stated that concerning interpreting constitutional phrases that, "Over the course of time, however, judges and commentators gradually forgot them." May I suggest that they ignored them and in even certain circumstances changed them to suit their social and political views or agenda?

In my view perhaps one of the most egregious examples today regards the matter of who has authority under the Constitution to regulate immigration. It seems both conservatives and liberals alike believe that the authority and responsibility to control immigration resides with the federal government.

However. I'm hard pressed to find that in the Constitution. Even today, certain words in our language have not changed since our founding. In Article 1, Section 8, Paragraph 4 the Constitution states that "The Congress shall have the power to To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States." The Tenth Amendment states. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The Ninth Amendment states, "The enumeration (particularly Article 1 Section 8, my comment) in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Unless I'm semi-illiterate, the words "immigration" and "naturalization" don't have the same meaning even if they're related in function, the first occurring before the other when it comes to citizenship. Furthermore, as the Tenth Amendment gives to the States powers not prohibited to them nor given to the federal government I find it patently unconstitutional and even an impeachable offense to sue or coerce (intimidate?) a sovereign State for trying to control what the federal government won't either by incompetence, inability, agenda, or a combination thereof.

This I find to be one of the obvious but studiously ignored violations of the clear intent of the Constitution and its Founders. This is made more obvious because at the time the early States did control immigration from outside the country into their respective States. What they couldn't control was travel between States or the setting up of, procedures, or the qualification of immigrants for US citizenship.

But I will humbly ask, am I barking up the wrong tree?

phreedomphan
phreedomphan like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Roberto Benitez I can't answer for Mr. Natelson, but in my opinion you most certainly are barking up the right tree. I'm convinced that the reason the federal government is backing illegal immigration, especially from Mexico and Central America is to build a fifth-column TPTB can use to help ease the merger of Mexico, Canada, and the U.S. into the North American Union and eventually into the regional superstate to include all of North and Central America as shown on the NWO map and plan of '41-'41. In addition, current immigration policies can help break up national and cultural unity - again, to make mergers into this superstate and eventually into a world government. The same is happening to the lost countries of the EU.

Roberto Benitez
Roberto Benitez like.author.displayName 1 Like

@phreedomphan I agree. Furthermore, speaking of the North American Union, what better way would there be to destabilize a country like Mexico? What if we were to help the cartels topple the Mexican government secretly and then say that the situation was so chaotic in Mexico that we had to intervene and create the NAU?

Of course such is a silly conspiracy idea, except that thru Fast and Furious, Operation Gunrunner, and now the allegations that the our government thru US banks may have enabled transfer of funds to the cartels, we might be seeing a nefarious plan by our government to accomplish the union thru an emergency, a contrived one at that.

I wonder what we'll do when Mr. Obama is reelected in 2016 thru acclamation for the duration of some type emergency?

phreedomphan
phreedomphan

@Roberto Benitez (continued from above)

We have taken on the role of “World Policeman” in accord with the wishes of British Imperialist Cecil Rhodes, and continue to destroy any regimes that do not kow-tow to international finance. Saddam, Gaddafi, and now the leaders of Iran refused to permit the bankers to reduce the people to serfdom. For that we engineered the murders of the first two and are preparing to bomb the third into the stone age.

I've long held that our continued allegiance to Mutha England made a large part of the world our enemies and our alliance with Israel is taking care of the rest. In fact, England and Israel are so irrevocably intertwined that I can't figure out which is the tail and which is the dog and which is wagging which.

Note: The first three paragraphs were taken from “Empire of the City” by Edwin C. Knuth. The first two chapters can be found at the site below. Unfortunately, Ismael, the name used by the man who sat in the Toronto library for 3 years rendering books to e-text, apparently got no further.

http://inquiringminds.cc/yamaguchy_mirror/www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/knuth/empcity.htm

phreedomphan
phreedomphan

@Roberto Benitez Excellent points. Thanks! The paragraphs below, taken from Edwin C. Knuth's "Empire of the City" add additional background to Britain's role in world tyranny. It's also interesting that in the mock rivalry between candidates Bush and Kerry, both are members of Skull & Bones.

2 Of the opium War of 1840 Mr. William E. Gladstone said: "I am not competent to judge how long this war may last ... but that I can say, that a war more unjust in its origin, a war more calculated in its progress to cover this country with disgrace, I do not know and I have not read of ."

T'ang Leang-Li describes in some detail the spider-web of exploitation woven about China by International Finance, and the traditional British policy of promptly attacking and eradicating any Chinese government indicating initiative and growing strength.

Few Americans realize that as late as 1932, Japan was engaged in subduing Manchuria as a British ally, with British support and protection, against the protests of the League of Nations, the United States and China.

Manchuria was awarded to Japan by the British international financial oligarchy for assuming the greater part of the fighting and the expense to overcome the Chinese Nationalist revolution of 1926-1927 under General Chiang Kai-shek against the domination of the British. It is of interest to note that every war listed as a "Revolution," including the "Boxer" War, was a war against foreign imperialists holding the Chinese Government in bondage, a war against the bankers of the City and against the "foreign devils."

(continued)

Roberto Benitez
Roberto Benitez like.author.displayName 1 Like

phreedomphan, here're some more interesting historical facts. The Opium Wars of the mid 1800s were due to Britain's attempt to balance its budget. So it imported opium from British India to China.

When the Chinese Emperor objected the British resorted to smuggling opium into China with the help of an American shipper by the name of Robert Bennett Forbes and John Murray Forbes. When the Chinese government objected, the Forbes helped start the Opium Wars to force China to accept opium and distribute it to its people. The Chinese have never forgotten that.

As a result, the Fprbes family became quite wealthy and powerful in America. By the way, brothers Robert Bennett Forbes and John Murray Forbes were ancestors of Sen. John Forbes Kerry, one of the richest members of the Senate.

phreedomphan
phreedomphan like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Roberto Benitez

It certainly wouldn't surprise me. Contrived crisis to justify contrived crisis management. This has been the name of the game for a long time, Roberto. Destabilize, destroy, and then put our puppets in place. We were once taught to fear those tactics by the Soviet Union, but few realized that the Soviet Union was financed by the same bankers that control us.

But I can only see this happening if Mexican politicians prove to be loyal to Mexico and the Mexican people and resist.

As far as drugs are concerned, the Anglo-American Empire is just a continuation of the British Empire of the East India Tea and Cocaine Company. That the Bankers would have it fully immersed in drug trade would not surprise me.

If you haven't seen the map I mentioned, it's here:

http://endtimepilgrim.org/nwomapbig.jpg

Oh, and finally, of course its a silly conspiracy idea. Most conspiracy ideas are silly. That's because most are based on a silly thing called TRUTH!

kbentivolio
kbentivolio

A good source for understanding the original intent of our Constitution is researching the words' etymology (history of the word). My personal authority and favorite is the Oxford English Dictionary which contains exact quotes from various published sources to better understand a word's meaning during a particular time in history. For instance, the word "welfare" found in Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution meant "condition of being or doing well" first found in published form in 1303, from Old English "wel faran" fare well. Jefferson is quoted as the original source in the 1780's. When applied in a sentence such as "general welfare" at the time of Jefferson there is a slightly different meaning compared to how it is used commonly today. Today's definition "The sense of social concern or provision for the well-being of children, unemployed workers, etc." is first published in 1904. It is a corruption of the original meaning. Another illustration to help us understand how words change meaning over time can be found in the word "gay" once meaning "happy" corrupted into a meaning that describes an individual's "sexual" orientation.

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@kbentivolio

That is very true, I don't think most people realize corruption of meanings or of words. Many arrive by popularity of an improper meaning or made up meaning which then is added to be a part of the word. Its really sick when you look into it. We wonder why communications is so poor in this country and this is the very source. It becomes the idea of something rather than the intent in the beginning as intended by the original idea. Pretty soon a sentence no longer means what it says and the more meanings we add the more arduous it becomes. It is easy to see if you really study the language because in many cases it has been purposely corrupted to throw off the original intent. For some reason people have this idea words are all so genuine when in fact evidence shows it has been altered hundreds of times for the purpose of confusion only.

Proprietary thinking is a good example of perverting to make it solely so few can understand. and there is no better example than our present law books says it all.

garycwood
garycwood

I have studied our Constitution in-depth since 1976 when I took my oath of office and realized I did not know much about the document I just swore I would defend. I have taught courses and written articles for the past 25 years. This book was very helpful in adding a great deal of knowledge about the document we rely on being restored. Federalism is long past understanding in our federalist republic yet before we can help restore it we must have clarity of understanding so we speak with those that will listen from an educated stance. If you have not already done so, get this book and add to your knowledge.

DooDooEcon
DooDooEcon like.author.displayName 1 Like

We as freedom lovers have but 2 choices.
1) Sacrific our personal comforts and commit to endng the slavery being forced upon us by evil men.
2) Run and establish a new nation elsewhere. The stars hold eventual promise, but countries such as Mexico which could be reformed into a stable free western republic.

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@DooDooEcon

With the correct knowledge of ourselves one is very possible. Know what life is all aspects, know well what Liberty really means, understand our pursuits equals our accomplishments. Know above all the power of choice, because nothing ever came about without one. Solid ground is these things when understood and used daily in the desired and chosen direction.

What is the opposite of Slavery? A Republic if you keep it, let the direction be cast, let the decisions be made and may the force of such effort be made to meet such and objective and do not veer until we get there and then never forget it so it may continue without the stupid evil men of this life time. Our force far out weighs them 10 to 1 and our only weakness the knowledge of ourselves.

Everitt Mickey
Everitt Mickey

It is easy. It's easier now than it ever was. People are ignorant now due to choice. Almost anyone has a computer and can "google" or look up in wikipedia. Just like I did on post roads. Understanding the meaning of the Constitution is even easier....there's this commentary see...called the Federalist Papers...

The Federalist Papers are a series of 85 articles or essays promoting the ratification of the United States Constitution. Seventy-seven of the essays were published serially in The Independent Journal and The New York Packet between October 1787 and August 1788.

However...you can lead a horse to water...but you can't make him drink.

This applies to Donkey's as well.

Scott David Murphy
Scott David Murphy

I had never heard of the word post-roads but i have known about the thoroughfares and what they were but i dont recall the name in which you have stated it is, post-roads but it makes sense.

As for the feds, they in the last 100yrs have injected themselves into areas that don't belong or are meant to be controlled by the states, such as interstate commerce which the feds believe was part of their power which it isn't. As well, alot of what we are having to deal with is in regards to many of the progressive era standards that had taken effect and has allowed that of the federal government to take hold of. However, today we are seeing the federal government trying to control everything and they are being turned away and rebutted by that of the USSC in many instances, not the the quickest route but nonetheless they do it to try and get away with it.

As for the comment about the understanding the constitution is easy, that isn't the case, many times today the words that are used have been redefined or interpreted incorrectly as many words that are used today don't mean what they mean during the founding. Example; today we use the regime, regime is used in a very derogatory means to imply bad government or rogue outlaw nation, but in fact regime means "Best Gov". And the list goes on and on but this shows just what we mean when we are talking about the Constitution isn't easy by far, i have great difficulties but i have to obtain the correct wording of its origin in order to understand the meaning of it. That is what is wrong with our society today, we take for granted what was left to us, only to be used and abused by our government.

Tim Zivku
Tim Zivku

The same way we are to read and interpret the Bible

Everitt Mickey
Everitt Mickey

A post road is a road designated for the transportation of postal mail. In past centuries only major towns had a post house, and the roads used by post riders or mail coaches to carry mail among them were particularly important ones or, due to the special attention given them, became so. In various centuries and countries, post road became more or less equivalent to main road, royal road, or highway. The 20th century spread of postal service blurred the distinction/////////.according to wikipedia:

Tenth Amendment Center
Tenth Amendment Center

Everitt Mickey - now you're having two conversations. amendment? another thread for us. As far as post roads, the constitutions' legal definition holds true as law over time. So while the system has changed on its own, it's not legal. The feds have authority on roads over...pretty much just the interstate highway system. Not much more really. Our point here, though, was primarily to the comment that it's "easy" to understand the constitution from just the words. But words change definition over time....

Everitt Mickey
Everitt Mickey

I actually think that "post roads", as well as slavery , is something that needs to be eliminated by amendment from the constitution. In my somewhat undecided opinion....the Feds maybe shouldn't have jurisdiction over roads. (If ANY...then just the interstates..)...all roads should be State,County and city.

Tenth Amendment Center
Tenth Amendment Center

Thank you, Scott David Murphy - we can't thank you enough for the positive feedback!

Tenth Amendment Center
Tenth Amendment Center

Everitt Mickey - thank you! That's a great example, though, of how modern definitions actually give the feds MORE power than the founders did. A Post Road was not "any road that had mail carried over it." In fact, it was far less than that.. To the founders, they were major thoroughfares built for speedy travel between distinct localities - distinguished from lesser roads in that they featured stations, called "Posts".

Tenth Amendment Center
Tenth Amendment Center

Under the Founders' view, the feds have authority over very FEW roads. under a modern definition which includes all roads that mail is carried over, they have control over ALL roads.

Scott David Murphy
Scott David Murphy

The Tenth Amendment Center, has got to be one of the best sites online. Hands down, very informative and written so the average person can understand the concepts.

Everitt Mickey
Everitt Mickey

wow....sounds pretty tough. I'd say a Post Road would be a road that's used by the people who carry the mail. In times gone past, I know it's hard for some of you to grasp this, there didn't used to BE email.

Tenth Amendment Center
Tenth Amendment Center

Tell us, Jim Brokenbek, what is a "post road" as reference in Article I, Section 8 of the constitution? Are you able to? Seems unlikely.

Tenth Amendment Center
Tenth Amendment Center

Jim Brokenbek - you claim that the Constitution is so easy to explain from its very words...yet you cannot - or are unwilling to - tell us what a simple clause of the constitution means? Provide an answer, or be gone this time? You've played this game far too often on this page and we're looking at you as a troll if you're not willing to engage and back up your statements.

Tenth Amendment Center
Tenth Amendment Center

Usually when a person refuses to answer a straightforward question, instead referring to the questioner as "clinton-like" (or bush or obama-like for that matter) - it's because they CAN'T answer the question.

Tenth Amendment Center
Tenth Amendment Center

Then question, remains, Jim Brokenbek. What does the constitution mean when it refers to "post roads"? Please enlighten us!

Tenth Amendment Center
Tenth Amendment Center

Jim Brokenbek - if it IS what you say, can you tell us what a "Post Road" means in the constitution's AI S8?

Rae Liera
Rae Liera like.author.displayName 1 Like

I say we start fresh - let's create a new Constitution. Let's scrap every thing that any judge or lawyer has done to strain, enlarge, distort, or destroy the original meaning of the Constitution by starting with a very fresh document that means what exactly it means to us today. Forget all the arguing and waste and that goes with constant referring to the past. Let's start fresh and separate the socialists from the freedom lovers. A new America - with no income tax, no federal reserve, no fractional reserve banking, no Obamacare, no commerce clause, no government schools, no EPA, FDA, CIA, FBI, Homeland Security, and all the other safety-obsessed agencies that are worst than the problems they pretend to fix. Let's just shitcan it all and start fresh. Those who want socialism - you take the north half of the country, and us freedom lovers will take the Southern states - thank you very much.

Oh my lord - I can hear that gasps of incredulity now! How dare I say such sacrilege! Like a bad relationship, the socialists will keep us bound together forever - never willing to just set people free - always certain that their version of "union" and the constant battle is somehow an acceptable alternative. Never mind how much human energy, money and resources is wasted on a battle that will never end. Never mind that there are two different cultural viewpoints that will never be reconciled. It just goes on and on and we've conditioned ourselves to the battle so much so that our conception of peace has become a caricature of itself. Why do we keep trying to make it work? Why can't we just admit that we're never going to see eye to eye and call it quits? Who says we have to stay together? Its not healthy to stay in abusive relationships, right? How about I promise not to force my freedom down your throat, if you promise not to force your safety down mine - that way we both get what we want. See how easy it is?

Sorry folks - I realize the world is far too insane for such common sense, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

DarrowfortheProsecution
DarrowfortheProsecution

@Rae Liera A NICE sentiment Rae, but I don't think the nation is actually THAT far down the drain that you could actually divide us into regional entities again. The Robber Barons will STILL want their summer cottages in the south and the southern poor will still want their opportunity to go north to work in the auto industry. (opps, that ain't gonna happen again).

It breaks my heart to say this but perhaps the 625,000 lives shed in the original civil war were not enough. I think the folks (north and south) just lost sight of their original reason for the battle and just needed to get back to 'livin' again.

The current acrimonious political process in this country is NOT a faze. It is a condition of the heart. And like all things, the heart wants what the heart wants. The only way to live harmoniously with a contentious heart is to kill off the adversary. THIS premise is what separates man from beast. Both have a heart-but only one has a mind that can pursue its' hearts' passion

Darrow...for the Prosecution.

Rae Liera
Rae Liera

@DarrowfortheProsecution Thanks Darrow! :) I do feel compelled to say that I didn't offer it for serious consideration, but every once in a while it feels good to say it for dramatic effect.

I first said this to some of my Obamacare loving friends. It's so mindblowing to be in a country where you actually have to defend not being forced to become a consumer of a broken medical system and its parasitic insurance companies. How is it possible that I can be talking to grown adults - perfectly reasonable people in so many areas of their life - but who grow intellectually and morally shiftless when it comes to government sponsored theft. It frustrated me to the point where I sent them an email suggesting that the only way to work this out is for them to move North. "Look, I don't want to argue with you about it anymore. Its insane. Let's just call it quits, cuz I can't win with you." Since I couldn't reach them through ordinary reason, I realized it was time for them to make contact with the human heart. I like to believe it had its effect, but who knows. . .

Anyway, ending a no-win situation and refusing to engage through whatever means is necessary - even if it means moving on if necessary - often sobers up bullies and do-gooders when ordinary reason doesn't work. Well that works in individual situations. But applying that at the level of the collective - hmmmmm. Looks like we're back to where we started from. Arguing, fighting, persuading, politic-ing - its exhausting. And you're right - its not a passing faze. Sigh.

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@Rae Liera

My apologies Rae, it was not intended to be tough. Its probably simple for me because of practice.

In the Declaration of Independence you have 3 inalienable rights one is Life, by this view what is life? Only you, or some other or is it all life it communicates to?

The reason I ask questions I know the answers to is because I have asked myself all of these and I have fully answered them to the point I am certain of my position. These specifically lead me to great answers and I found them all myself. So I thought it would be good for others to take the plunge and discover for themselves. There was no hidden message here.

I would like to be remembered as a great provoker of intelligence by causing curiosity about us. The more I find the more energy I receive and I would be grateful if others also received this same effect. It may be a great learning experience, that is if you are willing. I am sure not all will step up because most don’t want to see themselves so clearly. For me I find it takes far less energy and this may be why I have such an abundance.

I actually answered all of these on my website, but it is far scarier than this simple exercise. Knowing you is by far worth all the effort and enables you to heights you have only been awaiting.

Rae Liera
Rae Liera

@WilliamSchooler

Thanks William. I have to admit that its a bit difficult for me to follow your questions except in a general way. It feels like there needs to be some foundational understanding between you and me, the reader, before I can understand the direction of some of your questions. I'm a pretty straight shooter and that's the best way to communicate with me. But I can appreciate the concept of Self Determination and 100% responsibility for life - which seems to be part of your message.

At the heart of things, what is taking place at the political level of life is a reflection of our internal struggle with life. This is where most of the work must be done, I believe.

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@Rae Liera@DarrowfortheProsecution

Just keep in mind that ignorance itself is a creation and the question becomes the who is the source of such ignorance?

A mirror best shows this answer, but there are ignorant intent on imposing ignorance on the normal mind. Ignorance can only prosper if we allow it if we refuse to recognize the ignorance as well the source. Here is an example;

What is LIFE? some other? only one? all?

When choice is not based on what is in support of life what choices are left?

What Document clearly stated life as the deciding factor in all of life?

What is life fully comprised of when you do focus your attention in the mirror? Is there self determinism? The ability to observe and question? The ability to evaluate and validate as genuine? Does responsibility exist regardless if understood or not?

I assure you these are all the unanswered honest questions to self, as well the lack of determining factors we are living with.

Is the act of denying you actually denying you?

There is so little to be learned about ourselves yet so many are unwilling to take the time to self determine exactly who and what they are.

Have you ever seen a dead person do anything? How many live ones do you see that do not do anything? Are these showing signs of life?

Breathing is hardly a sign of living because the act of doing is only sign life has done a thing and results, effects and achievements are the only proof in existence that life ever did a thing.

The final question so what has Life achieved so great you cannot wait to open your eyes the next day and go live in it?

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@Rae Liera

I could only say that constitution is a working document for the right reasons. Knowing these assists in knowing it as intended. Look at a dictionary and look where a word began and where it has arrived today. Many times the original meaning is not even in the definitions. Like most things there are ideas of something but with some self intent that corrupts what was really originally intended.

We have a good basis if we understand it but there is more than only understanding there is also the strength to defy those opposing what you know the intent is. Know it well and become far more defiant and do not accept some view without principals nor a foundation. All things that have gone wrong are from popularity and acceptance, to accept something not true at all because you are too lazy to inspect it yourself.

Points of view are only points you look at but what is it you compare to? Determination comes from showing and not so much telling. A lot of people are good at telling but really suck at showing because they lack such truth. I personally have never felt stronger but I am a searcher, investigator and do not relent until I find the truth. Self determination is strength and when in numbers is far more strength.

Rae Liera
Rae Liera

@WilliamSchooler Yup, me too. Ever a student of history, economics, etc. In some ways that has made me strong, but the more I know, the less good I feel about the world I find myself in. Not sure what it will take for us to extricate ourselves from the system, and being in a perpetual intellectual and economic war where we are so easily manipulated, fleeced, and dominated by the whims of whoever is in power at the moment - well that doesn't seem likely to end anytime soon. When we look at the history of the world, it seems like there were only brief windows of true freedom before the controllers came in to offer us their "protection" and bind our hands again.

When we next get free we need to keep a note on the fridge: "Note to self: Remember - accept no protection but Gods."

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@Rae Liera

That is very true, history continually repeats and if we keep using the same habits now as were used then the end will be no different. I know way more about myself than I ever have and I feel strong. I am presently defying normalcy where I work and starting to get some recognition from people I never meet before. I don’t cower, I don’t lie and I don’t care if the elitist do not like it. Honesty to me rains superior and many who know me in my small world recognize my stance. I am now starting the original Constitution and read the constitution a few times. I always had trouble regardless of what some say about the English language, anybody saying that is easy never studied it I assure you. But the full understanding of the Declaration of the Independence has really opened my eyes and I feel very stern where I stand. That was not me before on this foundation but I sure am now.

Note to self is good and I am all for God but one thing I was gifted with is self determinism which holds all the force in the world. Force does not have to be destructive because there is such a thing as constructive force or none of the items you have experienced that you enjoy would not have happened, ever. Knowledge is power, self knowledge is total power and delivery is an act of power in a chosen direction.

The only protection you were ever given is yours to you or you gave it away.

zacncat
zacncat like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Rae Liera The problem today is if we had a Constitution Convention with the entire United States being represented, you would end up with a much worse document than we have now. We as "Tenthers" have been way out numbered, hence the problems we face today. The establishment controls both parties and as such would control the Delegates to the Convention. Now if you want to speak to a Convention as part of a Seccession movement...you might on to something...but as history shows... they probably would not let that happen peaceably.

phreedomphan
phreedomphan

@zacncat@Rae Liera The criminals who rule over us have been wanting to do that for a long time in order to legitimize in a new constitution all of their crimes against the old. As you say, to think we would have any control over such a convention is naive at best.

We have to first make more people aware in order to bring pressure on those in government to obey the Constitution. Then would be the time to start amending it one amendment at a time through a slow process that gives everyone a chance to understand what's going on. One of the first things I would do is return the Senate to the States. Next I would return the selection of the President to the original method so we could concentrate on our representative to make sure we get ones who will represent and not "lead."

We could probably get a list of good amendments as long as the number of people posting here. Probably tops on my wish list for a totally new amendment would be one making it treason punishable by death to give away, or attempt to give away, any facet of our national sovereignty to any foreign nation, organization, or corporation.

phreedomphan
phreedomphan

@Rae Liera

Another fellow, who I never met personally, spent several years in the Toronto library scanning and rendering old books into ebooks. His site is down, but someone had the foresight to mirror it. There is some great history there, both political and monetary. A disadvantage is that most have to be copied and pasted chapter by chapter to download. I do have all of it on my computer. If you find some that interest you but don't have time to do the cut and paste, I can zip you copies of them. So you don't have to make your email public here, mine is PhreedomPhan@gmail.com. Just let me know if you want any of them.

http://inquiringminds.cc/yamaguchy_mirror/www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/

Still another site for a fantastic history collection is that set up by Charlotte Iserbyte's son. He did it because he saw historic books and documents disappearing down the “Memory Hole” and wanted to preserve them. They are easy to download in PDF form.

http://www.americandeception.com/

The important thing here is not to get so caught up in learning that you can't do anything. I just like to spread the information out to as many people as possible. I've sent CD's with much of these books on them out to different people just to get more out there. Fox Mulder says, “The truth is out there!” I say, “The truth is! The problem is getting it out there!” I use mine more for searching and reference.

phreedomphan
phreedomphan

@Rae Liera

Thanks for the kind words, Rae. “Thanks for holding a light in the dark” warmed my heart. That's exactly what I've told people who ask why I bother. It's in the hope of keeping a small spark burning as we sink into the “New Age that's Dawning,” a dark age that will make the last look like a supernova. It will be a Black Hole from which the light of truth may not escape, but the sparks that light dedicated people like you may still give the human race hope. I, too, got my sparks from other before me.

I regret that I haven't really been as dedicated as I should have been. I've gone through several periods of burnout before the I-net and I'm still having trouble keeping my own flame going. As my biblical allotment of three score and ten draws near its end, it's good to know there are still better people to take my place.

I got my start in knowledge accumulation through acquaintance with some very knowledgeable and dedicated people. Sadly, most of them are dead. I can give you a link to the site of a fellow who has dedicated his whole adult life to fighting the good fight. He is what I call a “Conspiracy Watcher.” He never used the word, but I was stunned when we stopped at his house one evening to pick up some documents for a meeting we were attending. He had a forty foot basement filled with file cabinets and bookcases that were, themselves, filled with books, documents, newsclippings, and a couple of original copies of that map. All proved beyond even a shadow of a doubt that the conspiracy exists. Much of what he had he accumulated himself and much he inherited from a Philadelphia woman who had also been a Watcher most of her adult life. His site has only a drop in the bucket of his collection:

http://pennsylvaniacrier.com/

(cont.)

Rae Liera
Rae Liera

@phreedomphan Thanks for the links and the map. Yes, I'm a student of the NWO agenda. America has been corrupted from the inside and its been a long range plan, incremental plan. Interviews Ed Griffin did of Norman Dodds and Yuri Bezmenov opened my eyes - just one piece of many that I have looked into it.

It truly is a good vs. evil scenario and all that that implies.

Good blog. Thanks for holding a light in the dark. Many of us are catching up to your knowledge and we're grateful to those who have come before.

phreedomphan
phreedomphan

@Rae Liera@zacncat

I hope you're right, but I think America died a long time ago. It will take a necromancer with the added power of not only raising a spirit but the body as well to wake her.

I'm a firm believer that the punishment should fit the crime. The people who have been integrating us into global organizations and schemes are responsible, not only for the deaths of Americans, but of millions of people all over the world for more than a century. They are also responsible for the destruction of our economy and the death of the American dream.

There's a great copy of the '41-'42 plan of the New World Order at the link below. Study it and you may be amazed that what has been going on has been going on for a long time. I don't know what these plans to bring down our economy and national sovereignty can be called other than treason.

http://endtimepilgrim.org/nwomapbig.jpg

The death penalty would not be too harsh for those who have caused so much misery in America and the world. Again, I believe the punishment should fit the crime and I'm too humane to chain them to a dungeon wall for life.

If you want to, just for fun, form your own take on the map and plan and then compare it to mine. It's a bit unfair, because I've had a copy since the 1970's so I had a lot of time to analyze it in the context of the last 30 some years. Google has messed with the map in my blog so you can't get it to enlarge enough to be legible and the map appears to have been taken down from the U.ofS.D. so the endtimepilgrim copy is vital.

http://phreedomphan-lostliberty.blogspot.com/2008/07/new-world-order-death-of-america.html

Rae Liera
Rae Liera like.author.displayName 1 Like

@phreedomphan@zacncat You're right of course. I was being facetious, but it felt good to say it anyway. Education is the only way we'll get freedom back. And it does look to be a long process. Maybe America will have to undergo a radical wakeup call before it remembers its heritage.

Can't get with you on the death penalty thing, but I can appreciate the power of having such an amendment.

RandAllan
RandAllan like.author.displayName 1 Like

@zacncat@Rae Liera I can see zacncat's point., which is the fear that without a majority of framers of the new constitution being liberty-minded in the libertarian sense, we face the theoretical danger of creating a fascist govt, for example. Also, unless a supermajority of the states agree to disband, then with a strong progressive centralized govt desiring to hold on to its power at all cost, we may see a battle a la Lincoln and the Civil War, where he was willing to destroy the country, if need be, to hold it together.Since this country seems to be on a runaway train towards collapse, an option may be to hold a non-binding liberty convention and redesign the constitution as Rae suggested with the idea to drag it out at the appropriate time and gain support for a new constitution for a reconstituted and smaller country.

Rae Liera
Rae Liera like.author.displayName 1 Like

@zacncat Not trying to bring the whole US, only that relatively small portion - but nonetheless MILLIONS OF PEOPLE who are ready for real freedom. But you're right, it would not happen peacefully. I'm afraid to say that even if there were enough people who said - "Look, we just want out. We're done. We want peace and freedom to live differently, Let's negotiate secession." - even if we were able to put together a significant number of people ready and willing to do that, there would be no blessing to leave. They would scoff at it as if it were insane - because they are so arrogant in their ideology and so comfortable in the prison they have made for themselves that it would offend their notion of "normal." And when they were finally made to understand that people honestly weren't happy with the system they set up and had every intention of moving on, then they would result to violence, arrest, and even war to keep their precious system. And their violence would seem so natural a thing to offer in response, so clearly justified, that they would barely notice it was violent. "What other choice did we have?"

At some point we are going to have to acknowledge that government is violence and whatever protection we seem to get from it has not been worth the price that we have paid. A very dear price I believe.

zacncat
zacncat like.author.displayName 1 Like

Agreed.... The people that created the dependence in which we are trying to escape from would figure out that WE the producers of this country, the risk takers, the ones who get up everday and are productive citizens, theones that are leaving..... they would say..."Hey.... we cant do this without y'all" And that when it would all hit the fan