by Rob Natelson
In Washington, D.C. a group presents the Secretary of Education with a 120,000-signature petition asking the federal government to fund an effort to require every public school student in the country to take courses the group favors.
In Montana, activists flood the newspapers with letters urging that Congress force all Americans into a single government-run health care system.
In California, state officials lobby the U.S. Treasury to force the rest of us to guarantee short-term California debt so the state can balance its budget without correcting decades of overspending.
None of these demands would make sense even in the best of times. Public education is most effective when funding and other decisions are local. Giving more power to the same government that created the health care mess will raise costs further, and costs will drop only when government largely withdraws from the health care marketplace. Handing a state “free money†will not induce that state to get its fiscal house in order.
But these are not the best of times. Taxpayers are already struggling with a serious recession. The federal budget is trillions in deficit. When you see people promoting such ideas now, you have to wonder at the depths of human stupidity and greed.
As a professor of constitutional law, I also wonder at the depths of human ignorance. Do these people know anything about how our Constitution is supposed to work? Did they ever learn about federalism and the Constitution’s limits on government power? Do they know what freedom is?
Many of the people who now want to give the federal government life-and-death health-care power over 300 million Americans were hugely upset at how that same government treated a handful of foreign combatants at Guantanamo. Do they ever make the connection?
Welcome to twenty-first century America – where federal politics is largely centered on a single question: How much can the stupid and greedy plunder from their hardworking, productive neighbors?
History does not repeat itself, but history often sings variations on the same tune. Consider one historical variation: The American Revolution.
Some history books say that the Revolution occurred when the “Americans†rebelled against the “British†because the “British†insisted on plundering the “Americans.â€Â But that’s not exactly what happened.
Before the Declaration of Independence, Americans and British were subjects of the same Crown. They were all fellow-citizens.
King George III and the politicians in control of the British ministry wanted to increase the number of people getting benefits from government. Their idea was to create new classes of dependents that would be properly grateful to them.
But because the British government was deeply in debt, there wasn’t much money available. So the politicians hit upon the idea of taxing American businesses and consumers to raise the revenue they needed to swell the government payroll.
The resulting struggle was not purely between America and Britain. Some Americans were on the royal payroll, or hoped to be, or were dependent on others who were. These “Tories†firmly supported the London politicians, and some of them fought and killed their fellow Americans.
But among the British people there were many who sympathized with the colonists. Merchants trading with America knew they would bear much of the new tax burden, so they sympathized with the revolutionists.
Many perceptive Englishmen understood that a government that could freely loot productive people to support political dependents was a real threat to freedom. Together, pro-American Brits employed political pressure to help our side win.
In other words, the “American Revolution†was largely a civil war – a war among fellow-citizens. That is why most of the American Founders declared Independence with such regret. The Declaration of Independence speaks sorrowfully of “our British brethren.â€
Some leading Founders, such as John Dickinson and Robert Morris, actually opposed Independence because it broke their hearts to go to war against fellow citizens (although after the decision was made, both Dickinson and Morris rendered great service to the American cause).
Those of us who are outraged at how the federal government treats hardworking, productive people are right to be outraged. We are right to want to rein in the politicians and bureaucrats.
But politicians and bureaucrats are not the whole problem. To a considerable degree, they are responding to the demands of the folks who insist that our debt-laden government spend billions more, or that the federal government assume command of our health care and our local schools.
People who make such demands may mean well. King George and at least some of his ministers meant well, too – but the effect of their policies was a war against millions of their most productive fellow-citizens, and eventually, the loss of those citizens from the British Empire.
Whatever the motivations of those who seek to use the federal government against the rest of us, they too have launched an unbridled and unprincipled political war against their fellow citizens.
From the perspective of history, in other words:Â They are the new King George.
In private life, Rob Natelson is a long-time conservative/free market activist, but professionally he is a constitutional scholar whose meticulous studies of the Constitution’s original meaning have been published or cited by many top law journals. (See www.umt.edu/law/faculty/natelson.htm.) Most recently, he co-authored The Origins of the Necessary and Proper Clause (Cambridge University Press) and The Original Constitution (Tenth Amendment Center). After a quarter of a century as Professor of Law at the University of Montana, he recently retired to work full time at Colorado’s Independence Institute.









We the people face a grave crisis, a Constitutional crisis. After decades of avoiding the Constitution’s explicit prohibitions and duties; and after turning a death ear to the peoples repeated petitions to honor the law, our servant government has brought our grand Republic to the edge of ruin. How we the people respond to these escalating abuses over the coming months may determine whether or not our children may ever enjoy the life of liberty. To be blunt, our government is out of control. It has abused its limited powers, trodden upon the rights of the people, giving no sign of stopping. It has engaged our nation in Middle East quagmire with out Congressional deliberations, or brought about an economic disaster by a privately owned central bank with a debt based fiat currency; deprived the people of their privacy brought forth an emerging police state via the USA Patriot act. Unconstitutional apportioned direct taxes on Americans. Inaugurated a President without requiring him to produce evidence to establish him as a natural born citizen; as required by the constitution. Deprive the people the right to form a militia and to keep and bear arms; plus much much more: the unconstitutional North American Union; the unlawful Treasury bailout; uncontrolled borders and illegal emigration; Election voting fraud. And the most grievous injury, a servant government’s refusal, at every turn, to be held accountable in every way by failing to respond to the people with repeated petitions for the redress of grievances.
Later this year, represented delegates, people of each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia will converge as a national Continental Congress to debate our constitutional crisis, and establish practical strategies the people can take and map that peacefully establishes liberty and restore Constitutional order. These historical proceedings will be known as Continental Congress 2009. Taking a page from our founders, the delegates will assemble for a period of several weeks to begin the virtuous tasks of organizing the people to resist tyranny and once again imposing the yoke of law upon our servant federal government.
Among the potential strategies to be considered by the Congress will be the profound but little known natural right of the people to withhold their money to peacefully hold their servant government accountable to the law. If money is wonted by rulers who have in any manor oppressed the people they may retain it until their grievances are redressed and they peacefully secured relief without trusting defied petitions or disturbing the public tranquility.
A series of promotional meeting are currently being conducted across the country to advance public interest in this Continental Congress 2009 initiative and to expose potential delegates and supporters to this just cause in defense of liberty; we urge all Americans to learn more about the ongoing battle to restore Constitutional Order and secure the rights of the people through our Constitution and Declaration of Independence our founders bequeath to us. Not only the insight regarding the rights of man and inalienable liberty but the natural order of government necessary to enjoy and sustain them. Above all the founders edged a blue print a form of government that would be barred for ever trampling upon those divine gifts. Its time to join together; educate the nation, and take up the tools the founders gave us to peacefully secure liberty. The government has chosen to ignore the peoples repeated petitions for redress of grievances. For more information about the historic Continental Congress 2009 initiative, please visit us at http://WWW.GiveMeLiberty.Org
only when people realize that using force and violence – government – is an immoral and unjust way to achieve their goals, will we find peace and prosperity in this country.
I totally agree with the Prof. People have forgotten what freedom is and it may because they have never known the freedoms our founders invisioned for us. The Constitution has been under attack since 1860. Very loud pockets of self interest groups have allowed our Federal Govt. to install laws that punish hard working freedom loving Americans all for our own good of course. Party politics has taken the place of freedom and our rights under the Constitution. The first ten amendments of the Constitution are our rights and not privledges like driving a car. When I go to a political blog its all about left and right, Repubs and Dems. Its about labels and if you dare to mention the Constititon your label is right wing extemist. I hope our military is paying attention to what is happening in Honduras and take their oath to uphold the Constitution more seriously than our politicans.
BK Campbell,
Good points. If you’re a lawyer, it’s OK to talk about the Constitution because the hyper critical left can’t argue with authority (and that’s their weakness).
The military does get it, and the Oath Keepers are composed of current and former military and law enforcement personnel. They DO get it.
Politicians are expendable. Patriots are not expendable.
“If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.” Samuel Adams, 1776
Notice the reoccuring langage and theme of “revolution” that keeps cropping up. I am seeing this more and more all the time, here, there, everywhere. I sometimes lay awake nights wondering where this is leading. Intellectually, I believe Washington can never be reformed and that the pattern of encroachment will only continue until something one day breaks, either because Washington goes broke or one of the State’s secedes, or what, I don’t know. Emotionally, I say with Patrick Henry “let is come.” Yet, I find I am affraid and suffer a great turmoil of emotions. People are affraid. Not just angry, but affraid. Bad as George Bush was, he acted mostly externally. The new administration’s agressive domestic objectives are scaring people and are, indeed, “radicalizing” the population. Why don’t people in government wise up and just leave us alone? I fear where all this is leading.
“The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution.â€
–John Adams
King George taxed windows. Think about it. Got low energy one’s?
I readily agree with all the points made in HighlanderJuan’s comment, but, in my experience, the statement that “…the hyper critical left can’t argue with authority (and that’s their weakness)” does not ring true, though I wish it did.
It seems to me that the only authority the left recognizes is that based on self-referential and usually pious assumptions. And they rarely argue any issue within the traditional rules of debate. I cite, for example, the matter of global warming; if there has ever been a serious public debate based on good science, I have missed it.
When the left is challenged by argument their response is generally to attack the motives and character of the person who advances it, and if the argument is sound, they will try to score points only at the margins to destroy the case-in-chief.
While I hate to quote FDR on virtually anything, his admonition that “we have nothing to fear but fear itself” applies very much to us in our current efforts. And I rather tend to think that Providence has smiled upon this generation of American patriots, for what reason He has favored us in this way I cannot say except that our cause is righteous, and righteousness exalts a nation while sin is a reproach to any people. We find ourselves in one of the greatest struggles for the restoration of freedom and legitimate, responsible government that has ever been engaged throughout the course of history. But we needn’t blaze any new trails. The timeless principles our founding generation established as the ruling principles of our society simply need to be re-established and reasserted by an awakening generation. That providence has ordered the chain of human events in such a way that our generation is called upon and compelled to wage this war, I rather find comfort in than dismay.
“that the federal government assume command of our health care” Although the initial aspect of Rob’s article is informative, this leap was “from left field” The federal government has long been in command of our health care but poorly so. The government, by way of regularoty law, has allowed the healthcare system to run amock. By not preventing preditory actions by all participants the federal government has permitted the current crisis. The patchwork quilt that is the healthcare system today has never worked to the benefit of those that need it but to the benefit of the greedy.
Will proper regulation be painlessly installed? Hardly. The time for that was a very long time ago! Will some businesses expire? Suredly so! Those businesses that do not have the health of America as their driving force will expires and rightly so.
It is time that we all come together and work for the health of America, not its money.
JD, maybe I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying, but it seems to me that you think government ought to be regulating healthcare. You just think it hasn’t regulated it properly thus far. Is that right? If so, what makes you think it will (or can) ever properly regulate healthcare?
The time has come for a new Declaration of Independence because, as Prof. Natelson stated, the federal government is the new King George. I think his assessment is too kind. The federal government is becoming so oppressive that it will make King George look like a boy scout.
The actual U.S constitution would work just fine. The problem is not it, the problem is those (the government) who abuse and don't follow it. The Declaration of Independence is a perfect model for a new one, with some tweaks and substitution of current villains for the old ones it would get right to the heart of the matter, just like the first one did.
Terry, you are correct, the regulation that has occurred to date has been poor. I believe, however, you seem to be under the impression that once regulation is established that it never needs to be adjusted, that is a wrong supposition. What is needed is a system of regulation that permits that adjustment. You do raise a question that it proper, can the government ever properly regulate healthcare?
A free market approach has never worked in healthcare, witness the snakeoil saleman of old. Without regulation these types sold whatever, however deleterious to actual health, under the guise of a “miracle cure.” Thus the federal government, under such offices as the FDA, shut down such operations to the betterment of overall health.
What needs to be put in place is a system that adjusts over time to new treatments and ethical concerns. A system that is “set in concrete” will never work. This system must cover all aspects of healthcare from patient protection, i.e. aid in the prevention of malpractice, to the correction of such malpractice, to the universal availability of healthcare. Like it or not healthcare is a basic right of every person. If one person is allowed to not get the care they need, when they need it, we all pay through higher healthcare costs. There is indeed no such thing as a free lunch and those without healthcare today, the ones that are forced into the ER, causes all of us to pay more for our own.
Perventive healthcare, that which must be provided under any system, would bring the costs under control and reduce it all for everyone.
But it should be stated, as with every system that has man involved, no system is ever perfect so an oversight organization must be involved. This, sadly, seems to call for more government.
Can this be accomplished at the state level? Much of the problem of the healthcare system today is caused because there is not a higher level of government overseeing it.
Wynne Says: June 29th, 2009 at 10:20 am
You said:
“I readily agree with all the points made in HighlanderJuan’s comment, but, in my experience, the statement that “…the hyper critical left can’t argue with authority (and that’s their weakness)†does not ring true, though I wish it did.”
Your comments about how the left argues is accurate, because they don’t have any valid arguments, so they merely attack the opponent’s character and motives. That’s intended to bring the strong down to a more manageable or defeatable level and to distract the conversation away from the topic being discussed. It is very challenging to argue with an emotion driven leftist.
But the left is the group usually identified as statists – they want big government and lots of government control.
I don’t believe that statists trust the individual to make his own decisions because the statists themselves are incapable of making individual decisions – it’s all about group think and group decisions. So statists use another man’s gun (government rules & regulations) to force people they disagree with (individuals, conservatives, etc.) into compliance.
Individuals, however, don’t have a problem making their own decisions – it’s their way of life. If you look at the reasons why our military is so powerful in the field, it is my opinion they win battles because, inasmuch as they train as teams, they are allowed to make individual and decentralized battle decisions. Not all nation’s military are structured this way – some have to wait for central command to issue an order. We conquered the Germans in WW II because they kept waiting for Hitler’s orders. Same story with the Iraqis and Hussein.
It is my opinion that statists are immature members of society, and are not the ones who grow and defend the rest of society. Rather, they use up society and ultimately destroy it because they are not able to put anything back into society. They are immature – not ripe yet.
So, if we understand that we have a culture about half filled with children (speaking politically), and the children run the show, then we have problems similar to the ones we see now.
We have taken too much good care of our people, and we have allowed the weak to thrive. But it is too late to cry over spilled milk – the damage is done and the parents will now have to clean up the mess caused by the children.
It is for these reasons I have suggested many times that we need to raise the voting age for civilians in federal elections to age 35 (military = age 21), not allow voters to vote in federal elections unless they have paid taxes (only those who put into the system should get to determine how the money is spent).
But, as I indicated earlier, now is too late to implement these suggestions – we are already beset with the problems of having immature and unqualified voters in federal elections.
Like it or not healthcare is a basic right of every person.
Ummm, no; no it isn’t. Because you think so doesn’t make it so. Sorry.
Terry said: “no; no it isn’t. Because you think so doesn’t make it so” Likewise I can state otherwise. The point being is that man must take care of man otherwise you are left with a priviledged class and an unpriviledge class. Left to itself the unpriviledge will eventually revolt. It is therefore in your best interest to provide healthcare for all, thus it is a right to all.
I think it is an American principle to WANT a society with both privileged and underprivileged classes. The day we destroy that will be a regrettable day.
I do not think that theft is the answer simply because it occurs by 40 million thieves acting together. Therefore, as to the comments of “we better provide everyone with healthcare, lest they revolt,” is, IMO, not a palatable argument. It suggests we might as well give away what we work to earn because the thieves might turn violent to get it.
Rev J D Spears Says: June 29th, 2009 at 11:36 am
You said:
“Terry said: “no; no it isn’t. Because you think so doesn’t make it so†Likewise I can state otherwise. The point being is that man must take care of man otherwise you are left with a priviledged class and an unpriviledge class. Left to itself the unpriviledge will eventually revolt. It is therefore in your best interest to provide healthcare for all, thus it is a right to all.”
I think I see the problem here. Terry thinks ‘rights’ come from God, and JD thinks ‘rights’ come from government.
The Founders believed in unalienable rights that came from God. So, if you are a traditional warrior, as opposed to a secular progressive or statist, you believe rights came from God, and that you, the individual, have to assert and defend your own rights in order to keep those rights.
JD, I agree with Terry. An individual has no rights to healthcare from any other person. The individual has the right to keep himself healthy, but if he screws up, or is unlucky, he has to pay the tab – no-one else is obligated to help him.
Is this tough love? Is this jungle law? Yup. But it isn’t forced government care.
Man can (and does, if left alone) care for his fellow man. But once you hold a gun to a man’s head and tell him he has to take care of another, the care will decrease in effectiveness. Immediately. the patient will die.
So, what do you want? Voluntary care from a caring person, or involuntary care from someone who just doesn’t give a sh-t?
Your call.
I know which one I would want.
Left to itself the unpriviledge will eventually revolt. It is therefore in your best interest to provide healthcare for all, thus it is a right to all.
Hey!, I thought I’d heard it all when a commenter at my blog insisted that I confirm Hussein Obama’s non-Indonesian citizenship by contacting, as a private U.S. citizen by phone, the Indonesian embassy in Washington. But no, I hadn’t heard it all by a long shot. No; it is supposedly my interest, THUS a right to all, that I provide heathcare to all.
What a ridiculously stupid, ignorant, illegitimate argument!
Upon further thought, I suggest that the tide of the “great American giveaway,” is on its way to turning. The takers better stop demanding to take so much because there will become a tipping point where, not only do we refuse to give more, but we start taking back what we’ve been giving away in the first place. That would be a counter-revolt to your revolt.
“I think it is an American principle to WANT a society with both privileged and underprivileged classes” Clearly an America that should not exist! No, America’s ideal is a classless realm, where no one is above another. It is human nature, sadly, that desires these classes, so that man can be lord over other men.
“I do not think that theft…” a bit harsh and perhaps unwarranted. Are all taxes theft, or only some taxes? Perhaps if that can be answered this discussion and advance.
HighlanderJuan said: “The Founders believed in unalienable rights that came from God” actually they believed that the rights were given to the governed by those you govern, i.e. government, reference the Declaration of Independence.
“The individual has the right to keep himself healthy, but if he screws up, or is unlucky, he has to pay the tab – no-one else is obligated to help him.” Then you are clearly not aware of existing laws about having to provide care to the sick? Anyone that arrives in an ER must be provided care, irrespective of ability to pay. Who then pays for those that can not? Those that have healthcare insurance or have the ability to pay otherwise. So much for the “someone who just doesn’t give a sh-t”! Pay now or pay later, but pay we all do.
Don’t reference the DoI. You’re going to lose.
Jeff Matthews said: “The takers better stop demanding to take so much because there will become a tipping point where, not only do we refuse to give more, but we start taking back what we’ve been giving away in the first place.”
Granted! The issue is always in flux, a dynamic balance. Ultimately the issue boils down to: what is the best ecomonic way to provide that which must be provided? This is as applicable to fire protection as it is to healthcare.
Additional thoughts on “Taxes as theft”: Since healthcare will be provided, see previous comments, what is the cost to everyone? This cost will happen and someone, always those that can pay, will pay it. Is “theft” by the government worse than “theft” by the healthcare providers? The money will be taken nontheless. Is a properly regulated system, with the potential of providing helathcare at a reasonable cost, worse than a system in which the unfortunate is provided care at an increase to your healthcare costs, and usually higher than the regulated system?
One issue here that is being ignored here is that the States retained power/authority under the Constitution to decide questions involoving the role of government in issues like health care, welfare, etc. It is the federal government that has NO authority here. It is the intrusion of the federal government into the area of reserved States’ (people’s) rights that has bankrupted the country and has turned our once “dangerous servant” into a “fearful master.” So, while JD thinks everyone has a right to health care and Terry does not, the question is incorrectly stated. The question is “does the Federal govenment have legal authority to enter the health care question?” Here there can only be one answer: No, it does not.
Terry Morris Says: “Don’t reference the DoI. You’re going to lose.” Hardly but that is a diversion to the discussion at hand. A mark of someone that has lost?
JD, laws that require the LOCAL emergency room to care for sick and indigent are just that, local. We decide as States how best to answer the problem of indigent care. There is no legal authority for the U.S. Government to enter into this area. It belongs to the States and People, not the feds.
Actually, I think the ER, etc, is mandated by the FED if the institution accepts any federal funding, ie, treats Medicare patients, same with schools, I believe, if they except federal funds for anything, they have to give free lunch.
I am old enough to remember when people actually died on hospital doorsteps because they did not have insurance. Sad, but true. I believe in supplements, not free gratis.
JD – your arguments appear irrational to me.
I’d be really interested in knowing more about your educational background and your personal experiences that cause you to think the way you do before I offhandedly throw away your arguments.
My friend, you’ve already lost the argument, you just don’t know it. If you think you’re going to convince people in this forum that they “owe” healthcare to the “less fortunate” among us because it is somehow in their interest, therefore a basic human right to provide it, you’re thoroughly deluded.
You’re an enemy to this movement. Begone child.
Patrick Henry Lives Says: “The question is “does the Federal govenment have legal authority to enter the health care question?†Here there can only be one answer: No, it does not.”
Look to the Preamble of the Constitution:”promote the general welfare” clearly a call for the federal government to oversee healthcare.
JD – in regards to the preamble, you’ve made a common statement. A very common mistake too.
The preamble is an introductory statement to the constitution and nothing more. It explains WHY the constitution was written, and the rest is how this is to be carried out.
The founders recognized that the best way to promote the general welfare would be to follow the constitution – which creates pretty strict limitations on the power of the federal government.
The Preamble does not give any powers, whatsoever, to the federal government. And, from my understanding it has almost certainly never been relied upon by any court as the decisive factor in deciding a case.
**See Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 22 (1905) (“Although the preamble indicates the general purposes for which the people ordained and established the Constitution, it has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the government of the United States, or on any of its departments.”); see also United States v. Boyer, 85 F. 425, 430–31 (W.D. Mo. 1898)
JD – There is a significant difference between the word "promote" and the word "provide". Granted, the word "promote" the general welfare appears as one of the reasons for the establishment of the Constitution, but to promote the general welfare primarily refers to, by use of the word, encouraging the people, or the States, to consider all things that are in the best interests of the people in general. It does not mean to provide those things in every and all circumstances, simply because it is believed to be a nice thing to do.
Read "Not Yours to Give" by Davy Crockett. You'll find it on Patriot Post. The Federal Government is strictly limited to those powers specifically enumerated in the body of the Constitution. Representatives of said government may encourage State governments to undertake measures to, e.g. provide free health care to the citizens of the states, but nobody can force such measures to take place. Those tax dollars collected to support the governments, whether State or Federal, County or City, are there for the express purpose of supporting the governments, not the individual citizens.
Terry, I am saddened that someone that wishes to see the proper functioning of the govenment, at all level, refuses to acknowledge truth. If I have already lost, then provide the proof, otherwise, you begone little one!
HighlanderJuan Says:”JD – your arguments appear irrational to me.” as does yours to me. What does that statement accomplish?
“I’d be really interested in knowing more about your educational background and your personal experiences that cause you to think the way you do before I offhandedly throw away your arguments.”
Now this is an interesting request. What does your education background and personal experiences have to do with my opinion? Likewise, mine has little to do with yours. Further, I do not recall that this group reguires that anyone devulge this information to be part of the discussion. If so can you provide where it requires this and yours?
As far as “offhandedly throw away your arguments” that is your right but doing so, without addressing them, is a disservice to all invovled.
Patrick Henry Lives Says: “JD, laws that require the LOCAL emergency room to care for sick and indigent are just that, local. We decide as States how best to answer the problem of indigent care. There is no legal authority for the U.S. Government to enter into this area. It belongs to the States and People, not the feds.”
Nor is the feds providing the care. Insuring that everyone has some form of healthcare insurance is not the same as having “socialized medicine”. The medical care providers are NOT being employed by the federal government!
Okay, look, because you think that I’m refusing to acknowledge truth doesn’t make it so. When in fact it is you that is refusing to acknowledge truth. The truth of the matter being this — the constitution doesn’t authorize the federal government to involve itself in “healthcare” and any number of things at all. Let us look at it this way — why do you think ‘federal’ healthcare is a rather new innovation in our system of government?
You people with your modern-centric view of the world thoroughly disgust me.
Terry I say let the Rev. speak. It is good practice for the kinds of arguments to come. I disagree Rev. that Govt. funded health care is a right. As long as we are free there will always be different level classes due to different levels of income. Some will get degree’s and become specialist in their fields while others will not finish HS. The Govt. refusal to pass tort reform to reign in malpractice settlements is doing more to drive up health care than anything else. Some states have capped some payouts but Ms. is one who has not and now I don’t think there are a dozen doctors who still deliver babys because of this in the whole state.
Terry we can go around and around on who is, or is notm, acknowledging truth. That is a child’s game. So let’s drop that line, ok?
Federal healthcare has nearly aways existed, at least from the time the federal government began attempts at regulating medicines. Thus federal healthcare is not a “new” thing but, like many rights, a newly recognized thing.
As far as your “disgust” at my viewpoint, I’ll just consider the source.
BK Campbell, tort reform is such a small portion of the whole that it is almost a laugh to consider. Holding the irresponsible to a small limit is a joke, those that are guilty of malpractice have no insentive to improve. The problem is again insurance, the greedy, i.e. insurance companies, gudge the responsible for the errors of the irresponsible. Again an example of “theft” from those that can to those that can not.
The system I spoke of earlier must manage the malpractice but tort caps are not generally effective.
America is, in the ideal, a classless society. There are, at least supposed to be, no one that can lord their position over another. they can not “order” the lower class person! Sadly you are correct there are those that exploit the real and thus establish a class system.
Well, I’m not trying to silence the good Reverend. Someone once said that the best way to expose a nutjob is to give him a microphone and let him say his piece. I agree with that method. However…
It is not just about levels of income; it is about levels of ability AND of personal ambition. People choose their own courses. If I choose to be a lowlife piece of garbage who constantly complains about my circumstances and this and that, why would I expect someone else to provide “healthcare” or anything else for me? Besides, if anyone can show me where the welfare state doesn’t encourage less productivity and less self-governance, i.e., more dependency, I’d damn sure like to see it.
I’m sorry I did not properly address your “I disagree Rev. that Govt. funded health care is a right” Actully I would rather not have federal funded healthcare. However, since the system we have today, and for the foreseeable future if things do not change, does not work.
what I stated is that “healthcare is a human right.” How that healthcare is provided is an issue.
JD – I think you’re entitled to your opinion.
I, however, view a right as something that doesn’t require other people to participate.
My right to speak doesn’t require someone to give me a microphone. My right to think, to believe, etc – doesn’t call on anyone to fund me, or to provide me a service.
Healthcare – is not a right. Because it requires something from another person.
But, I realize that many people think such requirement is ok.
Here’s the question for you, sir. If I refuse to participate in and fund your health care program, would you throw me in jail?
Will you use violence to force people like me to go along with the program you want?
Wow! It became fun around here quite quickly.
How about this way, Rev?
I am all for federal health care, so long as 3/4 of the states are. That’s what it takes to make it Constitutional. Sadly, it doesn’t take more.
You know, there is nothing wrong with letting the local governments take the reigns on this issue. I have a problem with central governments telling all the local governments how to do things, escpecially when the local citizens don’t want to.
Now, if you want, you could compare health care to civil rights and try to defeat my argument. But I don’t think equal protection of the laws goes that far.
So, suppose my city almost unanimously says we don’t want to have national health care. Why should we be forced to? If you live in my city and disagree, there is always another city where you can go. But once the feds jump in, there’s nowhere to escape it.
If you want both diversity and harmony, keep the feds out of it.
Terry, clearly you are no paying attention. Everyone WILL get healthcare. This is a fact, a “truth” if you will. The issue is: What is the cost of providing the healthcare that everyone is getting anyway? I contend that it is the federal government to provide the necessary regulation to insure that the costs are controlled. Can this devolve to the state to handle? Maybe.
The USA is a CLASSLESS SOCIETY. This too is a fact. We do not have a Lord Class, and a Commoner Class. And there is no “right” of a designated class to “order” or otherwise control of a “lesser” class.
If it’s a child’s game, then why did you start it? But look, federal healthcare has NOT almost always existed. You think it has because of your modern-centric view of the world and of everything else. And even if it had, it doesn’t make it in any way “constitutional”. But again, you’re not going to convince anyone in this forum, so what is your point?
Rev J D Spears Says: June 29th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
I am underwhelmed with your circular arguments. I have not observed you acknowledge anyone’s comments as being legitimate, and believe you are here for polemical reasons only.
Have a nice day.
Oh, I don’t think the Rev. is here to start trouble. It is all about taking in some opposing views and seeing if your own opinion might change.
Be at peace and respectable on both sides of the discussion. No argument has ever been won by insults, only facts and proof.
Respectfully, I will disagree with you JD. The Federal Government has only 17 powers listed under Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution. In addition, the Tenth Amendment (readable at the top of this page) restricts the Federal Government very strictly to it’s enumerated power.
We did not have any Federal Healthcare involvement at all until the late 19th Century at the earliest. Even so, it is still illegal according to our Constitution, as are a mutitude of other Federal programs.
Even the laws requiring hositals to provide care regardless of ability to pay are illegal if said law is issued at the Federal level. The individual States can enact that particular legislation if they so desire, but the Federal Government is BANNED from it.
With respect JD, and not faulting your intent on the matter, please read through the Constitution and tell me where it provides any authority for anything regarding healthcare, energy, or education. It’s not there!
And finally, in seeing your “Rev” title, I feel I should remind of a very old saying. “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.” Mandated Public Healthcare will help build that road.
Thank you, Jeff. I seek not trouble, although that tends to be what I find.
Darkwolfe Says: “where it provides any authority for anything regarding healthcare, energy, or education.” Do you contend that if it is not identified by name that it does not exist? What about the right to privacy? This has little connection to those you have enumerated, but is provided as a possible example of a right not specifically named.
**rolls eyes**
Sure, Rev. I would just suggest that what you want or what you think is good for everyone is not nessarily what everyone wants or thinks is good. That’s why federalism was designed the way it was.
If you absolutely MUST coerce others to go along with what you want, then better to coerce at the local level, where the effects are more localized. That way, you don’t run round trodding on the rights of other cohesive, local groups in distant places that tend uniformly to disagree with you.
If 80% of people in Houston want government health care, they don’t need to accomplish it nationally. They should do it for themselves. It could be that 80% of people in Biloxi do NOT want government health care. So, we should nationalize it. We should let each community handle it the way they want.
Why they do not do it this way is beyond me.
Rev JD Spears:
You err Biblically, morally, & Constitutionally.
The welfare state is based on coercion, theft, envy & the distribution of plunder to favored groups in exchange for their votes. That is evil. Don’t you know the Commandments: “Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not covet”? As Prof. Walter E. Williams says, “I’m pretty sure God didn’t mean stealing was all right as long as it was done by majority vote!”
Your conception of “rights” is a perversion. A “right” is NOT a claim for stuff or services that are produced by, or paid for, by others. To hold that those who produce exist to be plundered by government for the ostensible benefit of others is slavery. It is evil.
Ours is a Constitution of limited & enumerated powers. Read Art. I, §8, U.S. Constitution. Neither there or anywhere else in the Constitution is Congress given any authority to make laws about health care! READ THE LIST OF SUBJECTS ON WHICH CONGRESS IS AUTHORIZED TO MAKE LAWS!!!!! What this means is that the federal government has NO AUTHORITY to interfere in health care or in any other subject which is not included in THE LIST!
The “general welfare clause” does NOT give Congress power to pass any law on any subject as long as a majority of them think it serves the “general Welfare”!
First: You need to learn what the word, “welfareâ€, meant when the Constitution was ratified: “Welfare†as used in the Preamble & in Art. 1, §8, cl. 1, U.S. Constitution, meant
“Exemption from any unusual evil or calamity; the enjoyment of peace and prosperity, or the ordinary blessings of society and civil government”(Webster’s American Dictionary of the English language, 1828).
But The American Heritage Dictionary of the English language (1969), added a new meaning: “Public relief – on welfare. Dependent on public reliefâ€. Do you see how our Constitution is perverted when 20th century meanings are substituted for original meanings?
Second, James Madison addressed this in The Federalist, No. 41 (last 4 Paras): Madison pointed out that the first paragraph of Art. I, §8 employs “general terms†which are “immediately†followed by the “enumeration of particular powers†which “explain and qualifyâ€, by a “recital of particularsâ€, the general terms. So, yes, the powers of Congress really are restricted to those itemized in the Constitution (primarily Art. I §8).
OUR FOUNDERS UNDERSTOOD that the “general Welfareâ€, i.e., the enjoyment of peace & prosperity, and the enjoyment of the ordinary blessings of society & civil government, was possible only with a civil government which was strictly limited & restricted in what it was given power to do!
The “general welfare” had NOTHING to do with parasites seeking to live at other peoples’ expense!
Friend, you have got a lot of studying to do. I recommend this book for you to start learning of the God-given principles of Liberty:
The 5000 Year Leap: A Miracle That Changed the World, W. Cleon Skousen
It’s written is a very simple & clear style. Non-lawyers should have no problem understanding it. Good luck. NOW! Get to work and start learning and thinking! Meanwhile, YOU may give every penny you have to other people to pay for THEIR medical care.PH