When are Federal Laws Supreme?

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Sometimes, the most convincing argument for an idea comes from its opponents.  This was the case when Representative Metcalfe and Representative Fabrizio debated an amendment to House Resolution 49 in the PA House State Government committee on Tuesday.

HR49 is a Tenth Amendment Resolution in the PA House of Representatives.  It claims sovereignty under the Tenth Amendment and serves notice for the federal government to cease and desist from certain mandates.  The amendment under consideration by the committee was to remove a part the text, which reads,

“WHEREAS, Many Federal laws are directly in violation of the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States;”

The proponents of this amendment couldn’t seem to think of a single federal law which might violate the Constitution, so they wanted to remove that text from the resolution.  One of the justifications for this removal came from Representative Fabrizio.  He suggested that the Supremacy Clause, in clause 2 of Article 6 of the US Constitution, requires that these words be removed.

If you’re a regular Tenth Amendment Center reader, you have already read the Supremacy Clause in the Constitution at least ten thousand three hundred and seventy two times, but I’m going to ask you to read it once more.  And this time, along with the words, also pay attention to the cadence you use. 

Pay attention to when your mental pauses occur and to how the words are grouped.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

As a regular reader, you also know that a key phrase in the Supremacy Clause is the phrase, “which shall be made in Pursuance thereof”.  A constitutional law is in one that is made in pursuance of the Constitution.  A law which is not made in pursuance of the Constitution violates the Tenth Amendment.  It’s that simple.

In the video below, Representative Fabrizio argues for the amendment to remove the specified text from the resolution and Representative Metcalfe, the chair of the committee, argues against it.   Representative Metcalfe was on the right side of the argument, but I’m afraid he made the less compelling case.  On its face, even though he gets it wrong, it seems to me that Representative Fabrizio would have prevailed in the debate unless the audience was already familiar with the text of the supremacy clause.

I would ask you now to watch this video, paying careful attention to the cadence and the word grouping Representative Fabrizio uses when he reads from the supremacy clause at 0:43.

The video of the full, sixty minute hearing can be found here.  Sadly, at the high speed of the debate, Fabrizio’s argument would seem solid to someone who didn’t know better.  He cites the Constitution and quotes legal scholars and what he says seems to make sense.

Representative Metcalfe, on the other hand, has the right answer, but in my opinion, the way he supports it is much more complicated than necessary.  Yes, it is always important to look at the supremacy clause in the context of the entire Constitution, but you don’t have to do that to know what’s wrong with Representative Fabrizio’s argument.  There’s a much simpler way to make the case.  As readers of this site are likely aware, all you need to do is to highlight the phrase, “which shall be made in Pursuance thereof”.  If you do that, the question answers itself.

Here’s the question that I think is most interesting about their dialog.  When you read the Supremacy Clause to yourself earlier, did you use a cadence anything like Representative Fabrizio’s rhythm?  I didn’t.  He read right through the first comma, then paused where there is no comma, right after “United States”.  I honestly wonder if I could read it aloud using that rhythm if I tried to.  He then stopped and repeated “and the laws of the United States” which further removed the subsequent phrase from its context.  Never again in the remaining minutes of the discussion does he repeat the phrase “which shall be made in Pursuance thereof”.

Why would he have read that clause in such an unnatural way?  Why read through the comma?  Why pause after “United States”?  I think I know.  I think that Representative Fabrizio knows the same thing that we tenthers know.  He knows that the magic words in that phrase — the words which determine whether a law is supreme or invalid — are the words “which shall be made in pursuance thereof”.   As Robert G. Natelson writes, in The Original Constitution: What it Actually Said and Meant (p. 60),

Federal actions taken outside the scope of federal power were not, of course, to be law at all.”

I think Rep. Fabrizio knows this and that he did everything he could to obscure that fact – very effectively, I might add.

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In the end, the committee spent so much time debating amendments that they didn’t get to vote on the resolution, so the resolution goes back on the shelf, but I think that this exchange was very illuminating.  Usually, our intellectual opponents just omit the “pursuance thereof” phrase when trying to claim that the supremacy clause overrules the Tenth Amendment.  If nothing else, Representative Fabrizio’s cadence manipulation was a very creative rhetorical technique.  In the end, though, I think this dialog shows us that underneath it all, even people who claim otherwise know that the supremacy clause does not turn an unconstitutional law into a constitutional one.

The domain of the supremacy clause is the realm of constitutional legislative actions.   The domain of the Tenth amendment is the realm of unconstitutional ones.  The two are not in conflict.  They are complementary.  It seems to me that if you think carefully about Representative Fabrizio’s rhetorical techniques, they serve to demonstrate this point.

About Steve Palmer

Steve Palmer is the State Chapter Coordinator for the Pennsylvania Tenth Amendment Center.

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15 comments
Clem Kadidlehopper
Clem Kadidlehopper

I think, as with the Constitutional scholar, she had an affiliation predating the question in the legislature that established her expertise and point and although her interpretation was also wrong, she established her authority as professor of constitutional law at some university and therefore her argument could have been views as honest understanding.

By the same token if one looked at the affiliations of many of those who push federal laws as supreme and push the federal government with unlimited authority will universally have globalist affiliations, such as Masonic, Skull & Bones or CFR and Trilateral Commission etc. If one were to look at those affiliations one could immediately understand that most of these debates are dishonest and often have a hidden agenda. Part of that agenda is establishing the US Government as supreme even above the constitution that ostensibly establishes and at the same time limits its authority it.

West Texan
West Texan

 @Clem Kadidlehopper What hard evidence is available to support your affiliation claim? The only such connections I've ever witnessed were in novels and fictional movies. The socialist wannabes' hidden agenda is for real. As evidenced in 1913 with passage of the 16th and 17th Amendments. Obama's constitutional transgressions are simply the cherry atop this subversive pie.

KansasBright
KansasBright

What Rep Fazio said was in direct opposition of the US Constitution and the Supremacy law.

 

America is a Constitutional Republic. That means (Republic) - sovereignty resides with the people; they may act on their own or through representatives when solving problems. A Constitutional Republic  - similar to democracy in that it uses democratic processes to elect representatives,etc with the critical difference being it has a Constitution that is the blueprint for how the government is structured, plus puts limits the powers of the government; including a Bill of Rights limiting what the fed gov can do to the people.

The representatives occupying positions  within the government serve  "We the People".

 

The federal government’s authority is limited to the powers enumerated within the U.S. Constitution. Many of the states ratification was contingent upon amendments being passed including what became the 10th Amendment (which Jefferson considered the “foundation” of the Constitution):

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people". (credit to Joshua Lyons)

The ultimate check on Federal power by a State can be uncovered with a quick read of the State ratifying resolutions (e.g. Virginia, New York, Rhode Island). These resolutions illustrate the fundamental right of rescission (i.e.  Powers delegated to the Federal government can be reassumed). Take the New York ratification resolution for example:

“That the powers of government may be reassumed by the people whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness; that every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the departments of the government thereof, remains to the people of the several states, or to their respective state governments, to whom they may have granted the same…”

Basically: The U.S. Constitution is a compact between the States. The limited authority delegated to the Federal government is enumerated in the U.S. Constitution. The States created the Federal government to be an agent of the States to carry out limited powers. The States have the legal authority to reassume powers delegated to the Federal government.

 

Preamble to the Bill of Rights: “THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.”

 

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@KansasBright

Sovereignty is a simple word to mean independent choice which is the authority of me, Life, the person, A Politic unless you want to use its miss givings in history please be my guest.

 

My constitutional Republic is really intended to be my communities by activity of life support. Republic originally came about in the time of the Spartans and other civilizations that wished to have just people willing to be responsible for their own action. To be forth coming and genuine as the actions of their own personal lives. It has been altered several times over to represent a society with a small limited Government to allow communities to thrive.

 

The federal Government authority is only limited to the rules set before them and adhered to. In other words when they do not they are reprimanded, Its not their choice it is ours. We the people is not any different than saying we the life in these communities.

 

Also I totally disagree with you on the 10nth amendment, it is not the foundation it a part of these rules specific for the people working within it. The Declaration of Independence is very much the foundation of this Constitution as well your own independence from royal idiocy.

 

How is that simple reading working with these states? History has shown beyond any reasonable doubt when Government is left to its own accord it will work to authorize itself and this includes state Governments or haven’t you noticed?

 

Basically the Constitution is a set of Rules for the communities in the states to enforce on those that hold public office and no less. And in your preamble with all the known abuses by results what then is your next course of action?

 

When all else fails clearly read and understand the real decision here to see what works over the past decision that do not. This is in your Declaration of Independence, you know the tool you were given to inform you in the choices you shall make to support this Republic way of life.

When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station, to which the laws of nature and of nature's god entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Wasn’t this very specific? and there is more also, maybe we should reevaluate our direction and our choices.

 

A Republic way of LIFE, a direction that fully supports life by the activities of the life within these communities. Life being all deciding from my own practice, I am pretty sure you were all given this. When was the last time you achieved a thing without a choice and have you ever seen anything achieved without a choice? So what is it all life actually does daily, play with ideas and decide. Oh my thats a lot to handle isn’t it but well worth looking at if we are honest about achieving the ideas put before us.

 

Maybe we should stop all the magical interpretation of words and stand upon the activities life is doing to each other. The life creating poor decisions in public office has no opposition to resist it all because you wish to argue with them about symbols on a page. Lets get down to the brass tax of all achievements, now what does that take?

 

West Texan
West Texan

I understand your message to be  "in Pursuance thereof ..." binds federal legislators to the U.S. Constitution's enumerated powers, with the 9th and 10th amendments placing all other powers off-limits to centralized control. Is this correct?  

Mitch Davis
Mitch Davis

Laws which are in conflict of the Constitution are invalid. Sadly in the last 100 Years there has been an amazing turn back of States Rights in the name of a strong omnipresent Federal Gov't. Now? It's getting even worse.

Bob Greenslade
Bob Greenslade

If the federal government is supreme and above the States as people like Representative Fabrizio assert,  then why do the States have the SOLE power to amend the Constitution and restrict or enlarge the powers of the federal government?

West Texan
West Texan

 @Bob Greenslade States lost their national voice with passage of the progressives' 17th Amendment. The states' best hope is a constitutional friendly Supreme Court.

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

Experts without a clue, what the hell backs up the constitution where there is a dispute? A Federal Judge or the lessons given us in the Declaration of Independence? When did this declaration not become the foundation of such choices? Why have RULE OF LAW without the Declaration of Independence?

 

And what the hell does any of this have to do with?

The support of LIFE, the activities that SUPPORT life and this INCLUDES LIMITED Government for a REASON. We have seen the lessons and we are positive of the results when Government is left to its own accord.

 

Its not all the SYMBOLS that dictate authority for crying out loud, it is the lessons, it is the experiences we are going through right now that fully verify and validate these activities.

 

LIMITED Government is a MUST for LIBERTY to exist (which is limited Government) And LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUITS of HAPPINESS are INDEPENDENT FROM a RULING CLASS such as any federal Judge.

 

LIFE, the people, the public, the politics of communities in states. WE the PEOPLE is the same as WE the LIFE in each community and have the will and authority to decide for OURSELVES to support ourselves by our activities.

 

LIFE in SUPPORT of LIFE. Look in your mirror and what do you see? Life, a capability to generate ideas and decide for ones self, stop pretending this is not what you see. Show me in that mirror that every choice you made is not sitting with you in that mirror. You made them and you shall live with them because in no uncertain terms did anything in this life take place without the CHOICE, not one thing. And this includes the CHOICE to include the Declaration Of Independence for the choice to authorize what a constitution means.

 

My apologies for the capitals but I am down right done with the exclusion of my very foundation of this country and the independence we put here to be free of this Ruling class idiocy.

 

It serves our decision process and is to be used as such, or all of you are lying to yourselves. Thats a basic truth I want you all to look at and to start to include it in every day life decisions. Your independence counts on such a choice or you will have none as the warning clearly state.

 

KansasBright
KansasBright

 @WilliamSchooler "... what the hell backs up the constitution where there is a dispute?"

First our "representatives"  within the three branches (Oath to Support and Defend the US Constitution"). When that doesn't work, law enforcement are supposed to step in, Secret Service if we have a domestic enemy in a POTUS, or any rep within our fed gov they witness as a domestic enemy.

States are the next to curb corruption within the fed gov.

(Remember: If there were never intended to be action to defend the Constitution from those who are domestically attempting to destroy its power and authority, why would each Oath require it of those who take the Oaths?)

We the people after that. The law enforcement and military have a few roles to play in this, from legal arrests and holding for prosecution if that is the action needed; to be the first physical defense against those serving in our government attacking the people, with the people themselves within each state making up the militia to protect themselves, their families, their states.

At least as I understand it from my studies of the Constitution, and our forefathers writings

Anyone else have any other understanding?.

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@KansasBright

Well Mr. Bright hows that going anyway? Did those reps uphold those oaths? Did states stand did they? And then there is the people in all their glory and lack of history.

 

See I understand the Constitution to be liberty, free from Suppressive government types and the reason for this is because it allows life to support itself by actions in communities, to pursue our happiness through achievements that make our communities sustainable. But I look past all the gospel of words and tend to look at the activities, the warnings forwarded me in order to make my determination and choices. But then I fully recognize nothing is achieved without choice good or bad. So what choices are we not making to achieve our Republic exactly? Why do you think that is? Because of the great understanding and effort we went through to achieve independence in the first place? Was that our Founders that served us these passionate truths?

 

If ever interpretation of the Constitution was put up against the Declaration of Independence AS the deciding factor it would have never made the alterations we have seen. The fact that so many of you refuse to see it is OUR total failure to ourselves. 

 

Have you personally ever looked at it from this view point or have you constantly denied it based on interpretation?

 

The defenders of the Constitution are LIFE, Idea creators and decision makers us all. But when we refuse to understand our own capacity and the gifts given then we have earned what we receive.

 

Show me this Declaration did not announce My independence from the royal family. Show it did not explain to me in clear terms that I need no permission to be life. Show me it did not warn me of the very actions I see going on today with no one stopping it. Please tell me that the Liberty Thomas Jefferson spoke of as one of the unalienable rights is not the same one my constitution entirely supports.

 

In fact in this document or the original draft which sentence was not documented facts and truths? Yet we never use it, its whole creation was for USE to make informed choices in the direction of A Republic way of life, where sustainment is created in communities and is exchanged outward to grow and expand all life. If I am wrong please show me I am wrong. But if you find you questioning you right now I suggest getting back into the depths of this document because with out question it is independence from royal suppression or you missed every clear description in it.

 

I can show it to be unquestionably the reason to even have a constitution to preserve and expand Liberty. Because these were not just some silly symbols on a page to review and let lay, no, these are descriptions of activities, experiences, ideas and decisions that took place to remove ourselves from the Rule Way of life which has a really long record of abuses. The history is there, all the results reside here and confirm and validate its contents as well what would take place if we refused to use this document. What do you think these warnings are here for, your simple reading?

 

I have to tell you Mr. Bright when I located this I was down right pissed at myself for missing it. But I realized I was young and not yet filled with the wisdom of experiences and now that I have received this I will not let go what I have personally located, by choice no less. Maybe this country needs a little stern choice to change the direction. Since all choice must have direction to move forward which direction are you headed. Feeling that liberty surrounding your every move are you? Seeing great accomplishments sustaining your communities do you or might there be a particles missing in the motion of choice?

 

I hope this is the answer you were looking for because I only know the honest one.

 

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@KansasBright

As long as those in Law enforcement do not step up is because they too fear their own corrupt Government. So as we move forward those who can show beyond any reasonable doubt they are true to their oath will be allowed to (key word is Show). The supreme courts is legal and no they are rarely on our side or we would not be this far off the proper role of Government. 

 

I did not say start from scratch, to the original yes but some have found some necessary changes to assure it does not become abused in the future. Certainly we can pretend our Declaration of Independence did not warn us of this very result and then pretend they did not explain exactly how to go about it, but the fact is, it is there for a reason.

 

The elections process can be restarted since it was once started although it must have clear reforms because it too is corrupt.

 

Totally disagree with you because most other nations are very familiar with how well armed this country is and our military men who do uphold their oaths will be here and we will hold them off.

 

We have always had our enemy close by because for us to think the British Rule ever went away would be foolish. Why would we be in such grips? let us not fool ourselves and deal with it. They will not infiltrate our service any longer and we shall assure ourselves.

 

The arrest you speak of will become true when the defiance rears its ugly head and we are the defiance should we decide we are capable to deliver ourselves a sustainable Republic, by choice mind you. For those who have not figured out how independence was once achieved, it was by choice and all those who made such a choice. Let us not forget how all ideas are accomplished, including the poor ones.

 

WE the LIFE of OUR Communities are our best defense, of this nation, of our Constitution and we are the decision makers of our Republic or we flat out will not have one.

 

KansasBright
KansasBright

 @WilliamSchooler Hi William. A few things you may not have considered are: Not all law enforcement and military are corrupt so we do have legal on our side - it is convincing them that it is time to arrest and hold for prosecution now - and who is on the list to be arrested, who we start with.

Next, for the Constitution there is no time limit, anything a domestic enemy did that went against its values was "void and not legally enforceable" then or now, even if it had the illusion of legitimacy.

That is why we do not have to start from scratch, we go back to the True Constitution. (ex: Federal Reserve is an illegal entity, freeze the assets, seize them after prosecuting the owners, upper management and those within our government who assisted them instead of fighting them as they are required to do. Congress, hopefully after we arrest and prosecute the domestic enemies start doing their Constitutionally assigned duties)

The other thing is replacing them, by vote, DNC and RNC are both corrupt, so NO parties, just on their merits? How do we vote, we are dumping the corrupt system we currently are using. This is a very important part of the process, and has to be along with the arrests, even if we need to put some temp people in - how do we handle the changes.

Last, other nations will view that as our weakest time, so we will need military home ASAP, but who among our military can we trust to do this, to lead our troops while we transition?  There are a few very high ranking whistle blowers???

Changing our country, no matter how it is done means we will have enemies within and without waiting to "pounce" and all the factors need to be figured out . I am sure I am barely touching on the problem.

But, to me (and many others), there is no option but Defense of OUR nation, OUR Constitution. Arrest and prosecution of the domestic enemies; including all who are still alive from past administrations.

Unlike them, we will do things according to OUR US Constitution.

WilliamSchooler
WilliamSchooler

@KansasBright

Though I agree with you I find that sometimes we must dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another.

When we created independence of the royals did we use them to fix or correct them or did we decide to separate ourselves from them? How do you arrest criminals with criminals, for those who hold no oath, nor do the actions of keeping these oaths are but what, criminals?

 

When do we the deciding life who have chosen the Republic way of Life decide upon for our direction? When do we put aside all our differences and bring forth our commonalties? When do we view this direction as sustainable, when do we make our decisions based upon what we know is true that is achievement versus unachieved? Isn't our common direction our Republic, is our common decision to have Liberty securely in place? When do we put us in place to hold such office, to create such limited Government? When do we stop using the corrupt for our answers, for our solutions and use what we know to be true?

 

Its not the knowledgeable we are dealing with and it is the ignorance of our own common purposes we refuse to see. Recognizing ourselves as LIFE (idea creating, evaluating, deciding energy) able to perform acts in our own direction by our own CHOICES! And not by someone else’s.

 

The alterations of our Constitution by them for them is by them who have decided to refuse our rich history, who are into rule and criminality. The original Constitution will only be upheld by those who have decided and accept no alteration, who are familiar with our rich history, who have decided we shall live with LIBERTY in this country and those who refuse shall be in our opposition. The biggest trap door all Republics fall into is their idea of Money for this idea was to support the Rule way of life. As long as we continue to use their meaning we shall be within their grasp. If I have learned anything from the warnings of my and all others histories is the financiers ideas all started the same time and have been implemented in every society over time. It is us and our obliviousness to these facts, it is our quest for wealth we lead a blind eye to accomplishments. It is their own education that strips us of our own capacities to decide what ever we want. How dare me not recognize the truths of life’s existence.

 

We should do what we did before and start a non corrupt limited Government with our Constitutional Republic in tact by choice and we should review our warnings as well our verifiable results of what brought us here and assure ourselves by our activities we are sure never to return. Eventually the accomplishment of this will be the example we have been looking for all along. After all wisdom is an effect of any and all experiences and no more education has ever been passed along. Its time we put some of these scholars to rest by the words SHOW ME the result and stop pestering me with your abundant symbols of impression.

 

Keep in mind all those choosing to keep their oath of office will transfer over to this new limited Government. It will only be those who we refuse to use anymore that will be outraged and they should be because we will be stopping the growth of the devastation they have created all on their own. You could say but this is foolish and I would say to you but it has been done before and been successful. This says to me it is entirely doable and far supersedes what we have attempted in the past with the fighting of symbols over proven results.

 

Our founders were not super heros, they were free thinkers, they were deciding and they used what they were given in their own experiences of proof. They were as capable as you and I, yet how many look upon them only to look down upon themselves? Where is it these gifts we were given and then are now all taken away? In my choices?

 

Its time to start being honest with ourselves and in history we have never seen once a corrupt Government become uncorrupt ever in history. What does that say to us OUT LOUD! WAKE UP!

 

First we must educate on how we got here so all deciding are fully aware, then we should have solutions in place to set the course we are about to take. I suggest everyone see the movie Thrive; What on earth will it take?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lEV5AFFcZ-s

 

Because it is one of the most thorough I have seen from all I have learned so far. It also offers some other ideas we really need to focus on. Although their view of money is the same this is a discussion I am very willing to get into. But it is informing many around the world, not only here. It is also the most subtle I have seen but not without controversy from some. But some refuse to really LOOK at history so its not far off at all.

 

We need to form groups and start putting together good discussions with a willingness to show examples and the whys and why nots. There are also several I know of that have been working on the constitution to be very clear with suggested corrections because of presented truths to date.

The TAC if very informed and is a great asset and we will all learn a great deal from each other. The hardest group we will have to deal with is the Economic group but I am working on a plan to deal with them because results are hard to argue.

 

But I believe right now with all the corruption we have seen that there are millions that will join A Republic way of Life, with Liberty firmly planted by very limited Government and a very well known Declaration of Independence like we have never known as the foundation of choice in a free society. That this choice backed by the ideas, decisions and activities to follow will create such an achievement for no concept on earth was ever achieved without the choice to do so. This can be confirmed beyond all questioning.

 

KansasBright
KansasBright

 @WilliamSchooler Actually the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution are forever tied together, they complement each other.

But the alterations we have seen within our government is OUR fault since we have allowed the corruption to go on, the changes that were/are bad for our country, etc. It is called accountability.

I have been fighting since Bush was assigned the presidency by the courts to have him and them impeached and prosecuted.

Now there are more fighting for impeachment AND prosecution of those domestic enemies.

It is only too late when we stop and continue to allow these things to go on. When we let lawyers give excuses why they refuse to file on someone within our government; when we allow judges who use foreign laws within American courts to continue in their job instead of FIRE them (We the people do have the power, but many are hesitant to take the necessary steps), when we allow law enforcement to not do their jobs and forgo arresting someone because they are within one of the 3 branches of our government, etc.

It all comes down to us, do we stand there and allow it to go on until there is nothing we can do because we are either imprisoned or dead?

Or do we demand arrests, holding for prosecution (They will run when they think they are "losing")

Because we all know that will be the choices, even if we deny them out loud - most Americans (and those legally allowed to be here) know something is badly wrong.

I say Fire them (or impeach; remember the states and the people have MORE Unlimited power, while the feds are limited.), arrest and hold for prosecution.

Freeze all assets of domestic enemies and traitors. Seize them if they are found guilty. After they serve their time, if it is not "traitor" (still death penalty for that one I believe) take away citizenship from them, and out them into the middle of the nations they were destroying, and drop them off. Let them "reap what they had sown"

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