Does Anyone Care About our Rights?

Bryce, Speaking of Congressional investigations into breaches of law, AND also keeping with this forum's titled topic: "Does anyone care about our rights" I MUST bring up the DAMNING evidence concerning the 9-11 "MURDER" of nearly 3000 Innocent American citizens! Does ANYONE care about THEIR rights to LIVE?! I just got in a 2hr documentary DVD entitled: "9/11:BLUEPRINT FOR TRUTH", produced by www.AE911Truth.org that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that explosives and fine-grain military thermite was used to "ASSIST" bringing down ALL three buildings! The witnesses, including many professionals in the fields of architects, engineers, explosive demolitions experts and fire fighters present a SOLID case indicating an INSIDE JOB! Due to our controlled media, mainstream America is totally ignorant of this information that points fingers directly at the government itself! For starters, ex-president George Bush MUST be confronted with this information and asked some very serious questions! That "attack" was awfully "handy" for him to have an excuse to initiate his "war on terror" and the so called "Patriot" Act! For the sake of all those poor souls that died such a horrible death through jumping,burning or being crushed, we MUST NOT let those resposible get away with such an atrocity just to promote their agenda! PLEASE obtain a copy of this video and help spread the word not only in memory of the 9-11 victims but for the sake of JUSTICE! The SAME people that are behind 9-11 are behind all of our woes today! It is up to WE THE PEOPLE to hold all tyrants responsible for their actions! Once we get the ball rolling on exposing these criminals then we can continue on linking them to their accessories and cleaning house of the evil vermin that plagues our beloved country! This effort must NEVER wane! IN GOD WE TRUST,all others we watch closely!

PHL - you made a number of attacks against other people's belief systems. I want to make clear that those kind of comments really aren't welcome here. please refrain from them in the future.

Maybe you could instead try to talk positive about what you have to offer - and stop putting down other users on this site because they have different religious beliefs than you. You'll have a better chance of influencing people if you do.

on top of it all, when you lump people into groups like you keep doing, you sound like a socialist.

thank you.

"If we do not have TIMELY Congressional Oversight, and Investigations into breaches of LAW, or Checks and Balances between the Executive, Legislature, and Judicial Branches, as described in the Constitution of the USA,
or have folks within the Department of Justice upholding their Constitutional Obligations INSTEAD of looking the other way,
have we lost our REPUBLIC and found another form of Government?"

-Just Wondering

Congressional Oversight- as in when there should have been someone saying ‘No, You can’t abuse prisoners’?

Investigations into criminal wrongdoing? Last I heard, there was a vote against even CONDUCTING A HEARING into whether or not Bush/Cheney was crook. They weren’t even compelled to ask questions...

Checks and balances- as in Congress asking Cheney to come answer some questions (and not even under oath) and him being allowed to say NO?????

Lastly and most disgraceful have been the betrayal of the Department of Justice. I saw John Yoo and David Addington come down for a little Q and A in the halls of congress and I can tell you that neither man gave a rat’s ass about the constitution OR the people. To them it was a game of how much they could get away with at the expense of liberty and the American ideals of our founding fathers.

So I’ll end with the quote from Benjamin Franklin you all know:

A lady asked Dr. Franklin:

“Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy?”

“A republic,” replied the Doctor

“...if you can keep it.”

"If we do not have TIMELY Congressional Oversight, and Investigations into breaches of LAW, or Checks and Balances between the Executive, Legislature, and Judicial Branches, as described in the Constitution of the USA,
or have folks within the Department of Justice upholding their Constitutional Obligations INSTEAD of looking the other way,
have we lost our REPUBLIC and found another form of Government?"

-Just Wondering

Congressional Oversight- as in when there should have been someone saying ‘No, You can’t abuse prisoners’?

Investigations into criminal wrongdoing? Last I heard, there was a vote against even CONDUCTING A HEARING into whether or not Bush/Cheney was crook. They weren’t even compelled to ask questions...

Checks and balances- as in Congress asking Cheney to come answer some questions (and not even under oath) and him being allowed to say NO?????

Lastly and most disgraceful have been the betrayal of the Department of Justice. I saw John Yoo and David Addington come down for a little Q and A in the halls of congress and I can tell you that neither man gave a rat’s ass about the constitution OR the people. To them it was a game of how much they could get away with at the expense of liberty and the American ideals of our founding fathers.

So I’ll end with the quote from Benjamin Franklin you all know:

A lady asked Dr. Franklin:

“Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy?”

“A republic,” replied the Doctor

“...if you can keep it.”

If we want our Freedom back,
we are going to have to stop being citizens.

http://www.notaxesnow.org

gene karl

Okay, I'm driving down the highway one morning headed to work and I see a line of cars on the shoulder of the other side of the road. As I got closer I could see that there were about ten Mexican "gentlemen" standing in the grass relieving themselves ... in broad daylight, on a major travel artery in Oklahoma! The irony is that they were p*ssing on America. The reality is that their culture permits that kind of crap. Apply the same principle to the multitudes of third-world immigrants that we've brought into and empowered in this country over the last 40 years, and it ain't that difficult to figure out why we seem to lack the moral fiber necessary to defend our way of life.

PHL, I understand your skepticism, and I think I share it to an extent. But there are even deeper moral issues in play and we're going to figure it out eventually, or we're dead. But there's got to be a starting point. I mean, the race doesn't begin half way down the track.

I Think States sort of pick and choose when to take the moral high ground in terms of federal money. I remember Back in the 1980's when Idaho was one of the last hold out states in terms of federal road money in exchange for raising the drinking age... The roads were awful, I would say some of the worst in the Nation. Pressure was mounting in the press against Idaho to cave in.. and finally the public chimed in.. the drinking age was raised to 21, Idaho got it's roads fixed... another attempt at standing against nationalism shot down for the sake of money.

At bottom, the issue is, are the States passing resolution merely because they resent unfunded mandates and intrusions into offical business of the States qua States, or are they passing resolutions because they are moved out of the deeper moral issues that are impacting our culture and communties?

If all they care about are unfunded mandates and the ability to establish their own speed limits on the Highway, and the bigger issues of abortion, school prayer, Intelligent Design, Manger Scenes, and Ten Commandment monuments, etc., which DO impact our culture they do not care about, then we are truly in serious trouble as a people.

Unfunded mandates are NOT going to make or break us in terms of liberty and freedom, but the larger moral issues will.

I in no way meant to offend, at times my fingers move faster then my brain…

Yeah; it happens to the best of us. ;-)

I don't think anyone here means to unfairly attack you, Larry, but you can hardly expect them not to defend their deepest held convictions when they perceive them as being under attack.

Anyway, water under the bridge.

I in no way meant to offend, at times my fingers move faster then my brain…

Yeah; it happens to the best of us. ;-)

I don't think anyone here means to unfairly attack you, Larry, but you can hardly expect them not to defend their deepest held convictions when they perceive them as being under attack.

Anyway, water under the bridge.

People,
I in no way meant to offend, at times my fingers move faster then my brain... I can come off a bit rank at times, but only because I lack tact and diplomacy.. ( okay, there I said it ) I certainly don't lack compassion or respect towards any of you..I will now retire to the kitchen, make a hot steamy cup of Sanka.. and hope that you all forgive my bull in a china shop approach. I would offer you all a cup as a token gesture for forgiveness, But I seem to be the only one who drinks it.

Michael wrote:

I’m all for moving on and focusing on what we can agree on - and that seems to be that the federal government is no longer a federal one, but instead a national one.

Well, it isn't supposed to be either one exclusive to the other. The original system involved both national and federal characteristics. But you're right, since federalism has almost altogether been abandoned it has become heavily imbalanced and national.

Michael wrote:

I’m all for moving on and focusing on what we can agree on - and that seems to be that the federal government is no longer a federal one, but instead a national one.

Well, it isn't supposed to be either one exclusive to the other. The original system involved both national and federal characteristics. But you're right, since federalism has almost altogether been abandoned it has become heavily imbalanced and national.

Michael wrote:

I’m all for moving on and focusing on what we can agree on - and that seems to be that the federal government is no longer a federal one, but instead a national one.

Well, it isn't supposed to be exclusively one or the other. It originally took on both national and federal characteristics. But you're right, the federal principle has been largely abandoned so it is almost exclusively, now, a 'national' government.

Michael wrote:

I’m all for moving on and focusing on what we can agree on - and that seems to be that the federal government is no longer a federal one, but instead a national one.

Well, it isn't supposed to be exclusively one or the other. It originally took on both national and federal characteristics. But you're right, the federal principle has been largely abandoned so it is almost exclusively, now, a 'national' government.

Patrick,
I do agree with you that without Christianity we would still be British subjects. And that Christianity was the saving grace of Rome..It was my intention to bring to light that Religion as a whole, and in the long run has not served the world very well. it is neither reliable nor consistent over time... That said I must reiterate my point that GOD is what salts the earth.. NOT religion.. this was my point. and that god and religion are not the same thing. God is interpreted differently by many and yet stays consistent throughout time in whatever form is chosen.. religion is dictated and structured by man to serve the institution.It is the agenda of every religion to spread and grow,and influence. With influence comes resistance, and that brings coercion and defiance. every religion seems to have the only path to salvation and heaven. But Christianity seems to take this a step further. The 64 dollar question is this:
If the only true way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, who's corner is he in?.. Because the Mormons claim a monopoly on him, as do the baptists, as do the Catholics, as do the Orthodox Christians, and so on.. Without being facetious, I ask how can one claim Christianity as supreme over any other religion when the factions within it are claiming exclusivity?

I wont deny that Christianity has cleaned up. It has done much good throughout the world. But I wouldn't rush to say they corner the market on good intentions, because as I stated in my previous post to you, their past is pretty sketchy, and all in the Name of Christ.. I must confess, I don't know the history of other religions, but I am sure they have their inconsistencies as well.

Michael,
A good, robust and respectful debate is healthy, it teaches that while we may disagree, we can be respectful of each others views..

Larry,

You're being a bit disingenuous in your reply to CC aren't you? I read your entire post above, and it's largely disparaging towards both the religion of Christ, and of Christians themselves. It also denies Christianity's positive influence on Western civilization in general, and America in particular. But the historical record does not support your claims.

Nonetheless, of course (genuine) Christians think that their religion is superior to other religions. If they didn't think Christianity is superior, then how could they possibly be Christian? This liberal notion of absolute equality between religions, of the various ideas about the relationship between God, man, and government; of legitimate as opposed to arbitrary government, is just that -- a liberal notion, which is to say self-destructive.

I am just wondering.

If I move from, let's say, Texas, to, let's say, New Hampshire,
because I need/want Medical Merijuana,
did I Secede from Texas?

If so,
will Texas try to Annex me,
like the USA Forcefully and Un-Constitutionally,
Annexed the Confederate States of America after the Confederate States of America Seceded?

Do I still keep my Inalienable Rights?

When do I lose my Inalienable Rights in the USA?

Are my Rights Written ANYWHERE?
If so, where?

Can the current President, or Congress, or State that I am in, take away any of my INALIENABLE Rights away?

If we do not have TIMELY Congressional Oversight, and Investigations into breaches of LAW, or Checks and Balances between the Executive, Legislature, and Judicial Branches, as described in the Constitution of the USA,
or have folks within the Department of Justice upholding their Constitutional Obligations INSTEAD of looking the other way,
have we lost our REPUBLIC and found another form of Government?

The closest I can find right now, with our current circumstances, is an Authoritarian Republic (CHECK IT OUT ON Weikapedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism

I am really upset that we have lost all that we have had so far.

For those that want to do more investigations, are we into Fascism yet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

When I say Fascism, I mean like the Benevolent Mussolini, not the Mussolini hung upside down.

Just Wondering and Thanks for all that reply!

I did not make that post to attack other people, but to make certain historical observations about where liberty acquires its energy and moral structure.

The New Age Movement has nothing to offer (cyrstal power? Give me break). Buddists pray to statues and have not produced freedom for its adherents. Chinese culture is totalitarian, forced abortions, etc.

Whatever energy Catholicism and the Orothdox churches once had is now spent and there are not making contriubtions toward liberty. Witness socialist Europe.

Hiduism is a cruel joke and has produced the most calloused treatment of the world's poorest of the poor. We know a young Brahman couple. They had 2000 people at their wedding. It lasted for 5 days, many are for 10. The British royalty would have been hard pressed to have put on such a feast for so many for so long. Yet, these richest of the rich have no problem with streets full of beggars and homeless children. Not exactly the kind of society that can produce liberty and justice for all!

We don't even need to mention Islam.

Go on down the line. Think of any religion or culture in the world. Everywhere you turn, it is only Christianty that has the energy and ethical basis that can bring and sustain liberty. Would anyone venture to deny that without it we would never have seceded from Britain?

True, men are imperfect and distort the Christian faith and sometimes give it an ugly, ignorant face. But that does not detract from its central truths or the fact that it only has raised civilization above slavery and oppression, barbarism and tyranny. We'd all be back watching Gladiator shows if Christianity had not conquered Rome!

That is why it is so important that the States act now to strengthen themselves against the federal government's war against the Christian faith by passing 10th Amendment Resolutions with teeth in them.

Pax!

Larry,

Although by your condescending tone I should like very much drop this whole subject, I am a glutton for punishment I suppose and propose this:

Two wrongs don't make a right. Obviously this will lead us in circles. Patrick can talk about his religion and you can talk about your lack there of and we'll still end up looking up as the corn has grown sky high around us and we wonder how we got to be living in Nazi Germany. Let's agree on 80% of issues and move on. Agreed?

CC,
I am in no way asking people to shut up nor was I demonizing... I was pointing out Patrick's assumption that Christianity was superior over other religions, in this case, Hindu and buddhism , catholics and orthodox churches. stating my belief that religion as a whole is man made and not from god, perhaps reading the entire post eluded you, sometimes we pick through posts in an effort to disagree and we miss what was actually being said. But thank you for reading it anyway.

Larry, I think your intentions are mostly well but in your criticism of Christianity it may do you good to speak FOR your religion rather than demonizing someone elses religion. This kind of talk is really unproductive and not conducive to the founding father's intentions of freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I welcome anyone to speak for their religion and how it will help save this country but please refrain from tearing down those whom you disagree with. Christian or not you are on his side, you want to preserve your God given rights as much as he does. Religion is from God, you just aren't in touch with that and that is okay but please don't force us to shut up because you don't want to hear it. That my friend goes against the very principles of liberty and the Constitution. Thanks!

WHAT DO WE WANT? An accountable and responsive government at all levels.
HOW DO WE DO THIS? We vote ALL of them OUT OF OFFICE first.

That is the hard part "voting them out", but remember, the good ones will appreciate the "vacation" having served honorably and the skunks will have to learn a trade.

Next election, people, OUT WITH ALL OF THEM!!!!!
Qualifications of replacements are discussed in the posts above.

We still have this power, lets use it or we will soon loose it.

Patrick,
I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion on Christianity.

Christianity is simply a religion, and religion is man made, Just like Government.. To hold Christianity above all other religions is ignoring it's history. One only has to look at the Crusades, the inquisitions, and even closer to home, the Salem witch hunts ( I could go on but I'll stop with these three) to see the Christian " Impact" at work. I find Christians sort of ho hum, and dismissive when ugly little inconviences are brought up such as the Mormons and their Mountain Meadows massacre,and Hitlers pope Pius XII, or even the Bible, a book rewritten hundreds if not thousands of times, yet it never dawns on Christians that maybe the story has morphed into something completely different then the original version.. after all, we are only human, humans wrote it, and human nature is prone to fault... Every religion has it's dark past, so I am not just picking on Christians. We need to focus on the problems of our nation, and we need to do it without trotting out our personal religions convictions.

It is enough to claim "one nation under god"
and allow each individual to define god in their own way. We don't and shouldn't be in the business of prostilizing our religious convictions has a means to fixing whats wrong with our Nation.

I have studied Buddhism and find this statement to be flatly false:

"Buddhism is another system of idol worship and has kept the Chinese in slavery to a Communist dictatorship for generations."

Regardless of the local religion, central planning is the one consistent tool of oppression and what our nation was founded to provide an alternative to.

Secession is not necessary, provided that the powers given to the people, in part through the 10th Amendment, are once again used by the people of America.

It's not a broken constitution, we just need to follow it for a change.

I believe in the final analysis liberty is not an accident of nature or history. It is the product of a people’s culture and temperament and has as its ultimate source their religion and morality. I do not think the Hindu religion with its worship of idols and caste system can ever produce a dynamic, scientifically investigative, politically free and just society. It is only by Western (Christian) influences that the Hindu Brahman caste system of class oppression is being mollified and broken down. I do not think Islam can produce a free, self governing people. Their religion is inherently violent and totalitarian; conform or die. Buddhism is another system of idol worship and has kept the Chinese in slavery to a Communist dictatorship for generations. Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ossified relics left over from the middle ages that consist in little more than bear ritualism, which cannot provide an ethical structure or dynamic world view capable of sustaining freedom.

The list goes on. Only Christianity has the dynamics capable of impacting culture in a continuously positive way, lifting man, lifting morals, teaching us to love our neighbor, to do unto others as we would have them do unto us; it teaches us not to fear the tyrant but to speak up for the right regardless of the cost; to live by and die for a code that transcends earthly existence.

This said, some of the talk or rhetoric about secession is to awaken the moral alacrity and righteous indignation in men that causes them to leave aside lesser cares and stand upon principle and the right not to have Christianity erased from the landscape by usurping federal judges. Sometimes I fear that the quality of men’s faith today has become so weak and insubstantial that what matters most is our retirement plans and creature comforts. How else can you explain the whole State of Alabama caving in to the order of Myron Thompson that the Ten Commandments monument be removed from the State Supreme Court building? How else to explain the total cave-in except that people just don’t care enough about things eternal, and have lowered their vision to the “flesh pots of Egypt”? That certainly was not true 150 years ago. An order like that would have produced an immediate, violent flare up of anger and outrage. I suspect that any judge purporting to make such an order 150 years ago would have been lucky to get out of town alive. That is no exaggeration.

Or, maybe people do care, but have been conditioned by the endless, incremental assault spanning most of our lifetimes to think they must accept this, as if America was predestinated to become a secularized State; as if there is nothing that can or should be done; that the whole of our Christian faith is summed up in “moral capitulation and fatalism”. If we talk about secession please understand that we are reaching out beyond the norm to some “ultimate” out there somewhere that breaks the paradigm of creeping secularism and socialism; reaching beyond the norm of our time when people don’t care enough to do anything, holding out a vision that says “we can, we may, we must” but only if we will.

I believe in the final analysis liberty is not an accident of nature or history. It is the product of a people’s culture and temperament and has as its ultimate source their religion and morality. I do not think the Hindu religion with its worship of idols and caste system can ever produce a dynamic, scientifically investigative, politically free and just society. It is only by Western (Christian) influences that the Hindu Brahman caste system of class oppression is being mollified and broken down. I do not think Islam can produce a free, self governing people. Their religion is inherently violent and totalitarian; conform or die. Buddhism is another system of idol worship and has kept the Chinese in slavery to a Communist dictatorship for generations. Catholic and the Orthodox churches are ossified relics left over from the middle ages that consist in little more than bear ritualism, which cannot provide an ethical structure or dynamic world view capable of sustaining freedom.

The list goes on. Only Christianity has the dynamics capable of impacting culture in a continuously positive way, lifting man, lifting morals, teaching us to love our neighbor, to do unto others as we would have them do unto us; it teaches us not to fear the tyrant but to speak up for the right regardless of the cost; to live by and die for a code that transcends earthly existence.

This said, some of the talk or rhetoric about secession is to awaken the moral alacrity and righteous indignation in men that causes them to leave aside lesser cares and stand upon principle and the right not to have Christianity erased from the landscape by usurping federal judges. Sometimes I fear that the quality of men’s faith today has become so weak and insubstantial that what matters most is our retirement plans and creature comforts. How else can you explain the whole State of Alabama caving in to the order of Myron Thompson that the Ten Commandments monument be removed from the State Supreme Court building? How else to explain the total cave-in except that people just don’t care enough about things eternal, and have lowered their vision to the “flesh pots of Egypt”? That certainly was not true 150 years ago. An order like that would have produced an immediate, violent flare up of anger and outrage. I suspect that any judge purporting to make such an order 150 years ago would have been lucky to get out of town alive. That is no exaggeration.

Or, maybe people do care, but have been conditioned by the endless, incremental assault spanning most of our lifetimes to think they must accept this, as if America was predestinated to become a secularized State; as if there is nothing that can or should be done; that the whole of our Christian faith is summed up in “moral capitulation and fatalism”. If we talk about secession please understand that we are reaching out beyond the norm to some “ultimate” out there somewhere that breaks the paradigm of creeping secularism and socialism; reaching beyond the norm of our time when people don’t care enough to do anything, holding out a vision that says “we can, we may, we must” but only if we will.

I love the language of this bill. It get right to the point...

Terry,
for what it's worth,
My State, Washington State is a solid Blue state from the Governor down to the two Senators. It doesn't reflect my views on a whole either, however it does uphold the second amendment, and carry conceal is "shall issue". That said, I don't think there is a State that has latched as firmly to the Federal nipple as Washington has. wouldn't it be a breath of fresh air to see a State declare a State flag day?..perhaps even pass state holidays?
During the Civil war men and boys identified themselves with the state they came from. Identifying ourselves as Americans has a Nationalist tone to it. Granted we are all " proud Americans" but to be a proud Okee, or a proud Washingtonian would put the emphasis on our individualism. I think the closest I have seen to this is Texas. Texans seem to understand this a little better then the rest of us.

Larry, interesting comments.

If our state flag in Oklahoma in any way represented the ideas this nation was founded on, then I'd hoist it to the top of the pole and fly it day and night. As it is, though, it's just a celebration of Native American culture and tradition, which is ok I guess, but doesn't reflect any of my deep and abiding values, nor those of the majority population here. However, I might have a copy of our Tenth Amendment Resolution transfered onto a 4'X6' piece of cloth and hoist it up my flag pole. :)

But I like your statement "secession begins as a state of mind." How true.

Talking Violence will definitely will snuff out any support that is brewing, and will give the liberal media excuses to draw and quarter supporters for being extremists.

While secession is something that I think is far from actually happening, at least in my life time, I think in the near future, citizens will be moving to states that are legislating towards being constitutionally friendly. States that actively resist federal government's intrusion, will see an influx of growth as more and more people migrate to states with politicians that "get it" like Montana and Texas and others. Secession I think Starts as a frame of mind.

Oppression has a funny way of masking it's self, when hope and alternatives present themselves, Americans seem to recognize it ( oppression ) quickly. the 2nd Amendment movement looks like a glimmer of hope, I think like minded individuals will embrace states that have taken the lead in this.

It also will make politicians who champion these types of rights wildly popular, Politicians that run on a platform of restoring personal rights, gun rights, property rights, liberty and freedom from federal intrusion, while also Supporting alternatives to federal money. To support an increase of State taxes, so that Federal money and influence can be rejected, thus solidifying the sovereignty and individuality of the State ...of coarse this is my own little pipe dream.

One more note, I find it interesting that citizens fly our Nations flag, yet you never see anyone fly their State flag.

I appreciate Jeff Matthew's comment above. Nobody should ever act outside of the law, and I do not get the impression anyone here is remotely suggesting otherwise.

I do beleive, however, that what we are hearing is the voice of people that are fed up with the government's lawlessness and usurpations; the voice of people who want their State governments to stop playing the coward and start asserting themselves. Is America going to become like France and England, where Christianity is disappearing? Every order of a federal court that prevents us from teaching our children sceintific creationism, or having prayer at commencement ceremonies, or that directs a cross be removed here, or the Ten Commandments there, takes us one step closer to completely secularized society, cut off from the very roots that made it free. And, quite apart from the political ramifications, there are souls in the balance. How many Frenchman and Englishman are saved? How many darken the door of church, or humbly kneel in prayer? Look at the billions of souls in godless China and idolatrous India. In India, their minds are so darkened that they drink cow's urine as a health tonic out of superstitious worship of cows. Google it and see for your self. Can a people whose minds are darkened like that ever hope to be free? Their religious notions produce one of the most brutal caste systems in the world. Ideas have consequences! And the idea of the gospel is the value of the individual in heaven's eye. One soul is worth more than all earth's treasure. Jesus died to save each soul that will come to him. This make the individual heaven's unit of measure, not the State. The State serves individuals, not individuals the State. That is the idea that gave birth to our freedoms. Where will we be when Christianity is expelled?

So, when we talk about what the federal government is doing when it sets itself up as the enemy of Christianity, we are really talking about what matters very most. And because it matters very most it ought to be the watershed of where we draw the line and where we say "thus far and no further." Let the government involve itself in ten million stupid ideas about socialized health care, or what not, but let it NOT lay profane hands upon the sacred place of Christianity in our nation's schools, government halls, public places and our military's dead.

Michael Boldin wrote:

But, on the other hand, impatience and pushing for things before other steps have been taken - is just as foolish.

Agreed. Afterall, "prudence indeed will dictate..." And, of course, anything taken to the extreme is bad.

You and I are at different places with regard to how far out each of us projects an actual secession likely is. But that's ok. We're all just trying to figure things out. And in principle I think we're largely in agreement, particularly on the steps that should be taken prior to an actual secession.

As far as the general discussion goes, well, you know, these open discussion forums like this tend to bring out the best and the worst in people. I think it just comes along with the territory. Which in some ways is unfortunate, in others not.

A personal favorite Federalist of mine is Federalist no. 1 from whence I extract the following observations posted below, without further comment.

On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.

Maybe those comments are in other threads. I'm not going to go back and re-read them all.

I don't think they are overt by any means, but some comments can be taken by implication that some people might be at their wits end and "ready to go."

Anyway, I'll just drop it. I don't want to get into a fray over this. I'm just trying to give some thoughtful advice just in case. If I mistook anything, then, I guess, "no harm, no foul."

I don't remember reading any posts about violence, what in the world are you talking about Jeff???

Maybe my point wasn't. You know all those people who willfully refuse to pay taxes? Well, they're in jail. And guess what? Nobody really cares, and they'll just sit there.

I am suggesting not to get too crazy with this idea of guns, bloodshed, rebellions, etc.

"Give me liberty or give me death" was a catchy saying that meant something only because it was coined at the right time. I don't think the time is right to incite violence or suggest you are ready to be a part of it.

I am NOT of the "older" generation and if you think you're going to protect the constitution yourself, you are badly mistaken.

Why do I wonder whether I might see some of you in the news one of these days?

Just keep in mind that the Waco bunch pretty much died alone, if you know what I mean. Not much was proved by that tragedy.

Patrick, Sadly the ONLY ones that share you heartfelt feelings concerning our beloved country are those of us whose early years were lived during America's BEST days! The youth of today cannot relate to us as they have their eyes only to their future as described to them by their socialist teachers and college professors! I was born in 1942 and remember vividly the high spirit the American people displayed as I was growing up. Back then people were a lot closer to each other and would constantly be visiting or going out with each other. I remember WHOLESOME times with friends, relatives and neighbors who were always concerned about each other and never visited empty handed! Families used to spend lots of time together, daughters in the kitchen watching Mom cook and sons watching Dad stoke the coal stove! The common evening scene was kids laying on the living room carpet playing checkers while Mom was siting in her chair sewing and Dad reading a REAL newspaper while we all listened to the big Zenith radio! Often we would hear a knock on the door and a shout of SURPRIZE as visitors bearing a white cardboard box wraped with cotton string entered our home! We would all sit around the dining room table and enjoy GREAT A&P Eight O'Clock coffee and the delicious pasteries in that white box! The older folks told stories that were passed on to them by their elders while we kids listened and learned with open ears and wide eyes! "THEN" one day it happened....Television! I remember the very first TV that I saw was at my Uncle's home in Mamaroneck, NY. It was about a 7" screen with a HUGE magnifying glass in front of it! There was not much conversation that evening as everyone's attention was "now" on the TV and NOT each other! If you did try to talk to someone they would answer you without taking their eyes off that TV set...as if to hint; please shut up! Once TV got a foothold into American homes a new era began and a VERY OLD AMERICAN TRADITION DIED! Sadly, it's been a downhill ride ever since this new TV invention gradually metamorphosed from a wholsome entertainment and learning tool into a mind-degenerating machine from Hell! (With all Satan's Harpies cruising through the channels to destroy the minds of our youth!) When I went to school we studied American & World history and had a separate class called Civics! We were taught about Karl Marx & Frederick Engles so that we could be aware of the ploys of Communism! The youth today and most of their parants were shortchanged as these elements were removed from the school curriculums through out America in the Socialist's planned agenda of dumbing down our youth. As the minds of our younger generations have become ripe as plums the Socialists are now harvesting their crop from the seeds that they have sown! SOOOOO, that's where we are today, the MAJORITY of people fooled and the KING of socialists laughing all the way to the White House on their ignorant votes! Yes, Patrick, my eyes well up also as I see what's happening today, but worse of all is that when I try to talk to young people all I get back is a blank stare! If this country is going to be saved and our beloved U.S. Constitution restored WE, the older generation, will have to actively do it ourselves with God's devine help and guidance! One thing for sure is that WE MUST NEVER GIVE UP THE FIGHT FOR OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS, UNTO DEATH!!!

One4Liberty,

You are correct in your acknowledgment that rights come from God. Unfortunately, most of the "conservative Christians" in this nation have chosen the Republican party over the principles of freedom. They have the most to answer for on judgment day.

"Patrick--",

Others share in your emotions and feelings. For too long, Americans have chosen to worship idols and have forsaken the laws that set them free. We are paying a price. Now is the time to renew, revive and reclaim!

I tell you that my eyes swell with tears when I see what is happening to this once good, kind, righteous, godfearing nation. A place where you didn't need locks on your doors, where divorce was unacceptible, where abortion was not even known, and homosexuality was an unspeakable crime. My eyes swell with tears thinking of the ruined lives and lost souls of millions of children who have fallen victim to the liberal agenda. When I was born, it was still a shame to have an illegitimate child. I was given up for adoption because my mother fell into sin and would have been disowned for the disgrace her selfishness and folly brought on thier and her own good name. Today, women just murder children in their wombs. Those that have them, have children by three different fathers. What kind of life will those children grow up to have? What kind of nation will we have when the 39.4% of children now growing up are adults? My God! When will we say enough? "Is life so sweet and peace so dear that it must be at the price of slavery?" I have come to beleive that we are better off being cut down like dogs in the street fighting for liberty, then to allow the madness to go on. But, yes. We must work through the law, and yes, the steps being taken are essential and important. But my blood runs red when I think of the crimes and endless, relentless assualt against all that we have ever called good and what it will mean for those who come tomorrow! What a sorry, sorry legacy we are leaving behind. Truly, it is a disgrace that we did not have conviction enough to demand a stop sooner. God forgive us!

Anticrime,

If we are going to really take this to the point of impact, the real date is 1861, but I understand that the creation of the Federal Reserve had a serious implication and impact on the power of we the people.

And I, like you, commended "Patrick--" for his position. As I have said throughout my blogs, we all agree that the power of the federal government is unauthorized under the constitution, and therefore, tyrannical.

The question from this point out is: what measures will we take to take the power back.

Yes, well said Patrick! I have enjoyed the discussion today and hope similar ones will transpire in homes and public places across America.

Let me say also that too many liberty minded people try to be pc by not wanting to discuss the role religion plays in the liberty of this country. At one such meeting where we were talking about not bringing religion into the discussions I asked how we can have a republic without moral values and if your moral values do not come from your religious base then I question those values. Charles Manson had no regret for what he did because it didn't go against his personal moral values. The whole concept of Natural Rights comes from God, how can we then deny the creator and ultimate protector of those rights?

I for one will never "leave God out of it". Thanks again Patrick.

FreedomForAChange, In reference to our implied consent for over 50 years, (let's make that since 1913) it was actually "implied consent without knowledge" of the majority! Of course ignorance is no excuse, but that is what happened, my friend!

HEAR! HEAR! Patrick, I SECOND ALL that you said! You summed up the major feelings of MANY people in this country in a concise & compact package of words! WELL SAID, my friend!

"Patrick--",

I agree with you 100%. I believe that our right to break away from the tyrannical chains has manifested itself. I believe you are correct that we should no longer accept their rule over us the way we have in the past. The evidence of our resistance is coming to fruition.

But here is the reality, we cannot allow our frustration of the times cause us to make rash decisions. We the people have created the mess ourselves--not over night--but over a long period of time.

There is a legal principle in American jurisprudence that says this: where a non-breaching party allows a breaching party to a contract continually act contrary to the agreement without the non-breaching party's termination of that agreement, then the non-breaching creates a sort-of implied consent to the unlawful actions of the breaching party. Thus, to regain the right to "terminate the contract", the non-breaching party must re-establish the terms of the contract, notifying the breaching party of his intent to hold the breaching party accountable to the terms. If after giving proper notice the breaching party continues to breach, the non-breaching party may use lawful means to terminate the contract and sue for damages.

This matter of resistance to our federal government is similar in nature. Yes, we all agree that we have a right under the contract to terminate the contract, but we must consider the fact that we have given our implied consent to this tyranny for the past 50 years (at least). Thus, to re-establish our rights under the contract (the constitution) we should notify the federal government (in no uncertain terms) that we are going to be enforcing the contract that they have been breaching and that should they decide to continue breaching, we will terminate the agreement.

No one criticizes your feelings on wanting to do away with the entity that is enslaving us and demoralizing our nation; however, you must understand that we the people have to take certain, definite and gradual steps to reasserting our rights under the contract, which was to secure them.

Reasonable people may differ on the exact measures of our resistance in this regard. But you have to admit that out-and-out secession at this point would not likely yield the fruits that you desire--though I admit, I could be wrong. However, I believe as you study our history from 1700 to 1861, you will find that our Christian-forefathers, who believed the same things as you, did not revolt immediately upon acknowledgment of tyranny, but rather, they "suffered evils while evils were sufferable".

But since time is of the essence, I believe that most of us who recognize the problem realize that the steps must be taken now to rid ourselves of the chains that bind us.

Let me say one more thing about secession, then I'll shut up. The federal government has made itself the enemy of everything I believe, and the millions and millions of other church going Americans believe. It agressively attacks our faith - the faith that founded this country and whose values gave it her freedoms. It attacks our faith through the courts, it attacks it through the Dept. of Education; it attacks it through subsidies to Public TV and all sorts of pollitically correct sciences (so-called). Atheism is the unofficial religion of the Federal government and it has brought about a huge toll in lost lives and souls. The unborn aborted babies alone number upward of 50 million. The family is quickly becoming a thing of the past. The illegitimate birth rate is now 39.4% The list goes on and on.

Is it wrong for us to hope that this terrible evil we call the federal government will go away and leave us alone and stop its war against traditional values? Is it wrong to hope that a few States across the Bible belt break away so that our values can be restored and enshrined in our laws and culture, as they were in the past? Why is it wrong to hope the Federal government will cease to be, if it has determined to be the enemy of Christ and God? Who could wish it success? No. It is not wrong to hope, pray, or even work for secession against a governmwent that has become intrinsically evil - "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride" month, huh? Sorry, but I cannot agree that we are either radical or unreasonable to embrace a hope of Southern Independence from Leviathan. I am sorry if that offends you. I only hope you can appreciate our position and grant us mutual respect.

One interesting thing that came out of the Wall Street Journal article is that small is good. Big tends to crumble over time all by itself. This is true of every empire, ours too. We may not occupy nations the way the Romans and others did, but we have created an economic hedgemony through the dollar by making it the only currency that oil will sell in. So in a way, we make everybody use our currency if they want to buy oil, then depreciate it through outrageous deficit spending, and thus impose an indirect tax or form of tribute on the rest of the world by inflation/depreciation. A less intrusive, but equally effective form of world empire. Anyway, the point is, our empire is beginning to break up, like it or not. The debt machine can only go so far then, it will collapse. This is what is prompting so much alarm and movement at this time. I talk about secession partly rhetorically. I do not feel the Resoltions will do more than serve as moral justification for the States continuing greivance against the feds. The Resolutions will be ignored (as they always have been) but this will become moral justification on our side for whatever comes later. By introducing secession into the discussion now, I simply hope to speed the process up and not waste a lot of time on Resolutions that will prove fruitless. I believe it will take more to get Washington's attention then words and appeals. If I am wrong, fine. All the better for everyone!